US The most interesting Vegan post ever?

The Master Of Design

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I have been thinking. A lot. And a lot more. In fact, I've been thinking about everything since I started to question everything.
Is it good to question it, is it bad to question it?
I think it's good to question it and to challenge our beliefs because it can change the world and the way we feel on a day-to-day basis.

I would like to talk to you about my personal recent view on this whole thing Vegan. I believe in it with all my heart, that is the right thing to do. But as much I judged people what they eat, I recently started to understand some things on a deeper level. That is that (some may judge me for saying this but its the way I see it now, and that could change) chickens, and pigs are omnivores, so they eat other animals, and if a human eats them it's kind of a karmic debt for them as well. (not that I want to eat them ever again, just to make it clear)

Somehow I believe God, Universe... protects those animals who are karmically debt-free from their past or current life, and this can also change among animals and humans. We all know that a human can do bad things and get away with them in their current life if he believes that the world is an illusion and it doesn't matter if he do right or wrong. Yet all of this might sound a bit confusing at first but the more I think of it the more it makes sense to me. That we all are exactly where we need to be, and sure we as Vegans want animal liberation but most of us still didn't achieve our own liberation from suffering etc. not to mention how many other people don't have even access to information and a belief that we have.

As much as I am for not eating any animals, I also realize I care more about dogs than chickens for example. If I had to choose who to save between those two, it would be clearly dogs. I want to let you reflect and write how you feel about the fact that we indeed might love more one than the other.
 
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silva

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Omnivores have the ability to be opportunistic. They have the ability to formulate vitamins from their direct sources. Carnivores don't have that ability. If all they have to eat are plants they're screwed. They would eventually die of protein and vitamin deficiencies. It isn't a matter of ethics.
While pigs and chickens are omnivores, meat makes up a very small part of their diet, as, I believe, is true with all omnivorous animals. They have a better prospect of health as they have a choice in foods.
Animal suffering, and the amounts consumed, is largely from the greed. It's not found in tribal communities,and only in poor communities through the government subsidized livestock.
There is a huge difference in killing to sustain your life and killing without need. If I were being charged by an animal likely to kill me and I had the means to kill them first, yes, I would kill them.

You'd most likely feel the way you do towards dogs towards any animal you had a relationship with through the years. As a child I always had the spiders that spun webs under the porch steps as my freinds, and I'll always have a fondness towards them. I've known many people who prefer chickens, or rats, or any other animal, to dogs. Dogs and cats have been domestic for so long no one thinks twice about it here at least.

I do find the idea of God or the Universe protecting those they see as "good" rather odd as isn't it them that made it this way?
 
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The Master Of Design

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Omnivores have the ability to be opportunistic. They have the ability to formulate vitamins from their direct sources. Carnivores don't have that ability. If all they have to eat are plants they're screwed. They would eventually die of protein and vitamin deficiencies. It isn't a matter of ethics.
While pigs and chickens are omnivores, meat makes up a very small part of their diet, as, I believe, is true with all omnivorous animals. They have a better prospect of health as they have a choice in foods.
Animal suffering, and the amounts consumed, is largely from the greed. It's not found in tribal communities,and only in poor communities through the government subsidized livestock.
There is a huge difference in killing to sustain your life and killing without need. If I were being charged by an animal likely to kill me and I had the means to kill them first, yes, I would kill them.

You'd most likely feel the way you do towards dogs towards any animal you had a relationship with through the years. As a child I always had the spiders that spun webs under the porch steps as my freinds, and I'll always have a fondness towards them. I've known many people who prefer chickens, or rats, or any other animal, to dogs. Dogs and cats have been domestic for so long no one thinks twice about it here at least.

I do find the idea of God or the Universe protecting those they see as "good" rather odd as isn't it them that made it this way?
What I meant is that all animals have some karmic debt, in reality, there are no good or bad animals, and we don’t know why some animals suffer more and others get rescued. Surely we can say because of human greed, but we all have to play our role. And some play the role of ignorant people, others greedy some don’t know what is going on, and so on and I think we just have to leave it at that, God works in a mysterious ways, people who want to find the truth will find it.
 
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I don't quite agree with your reasoning, which seems to essentially be "pigs and chickens have it coming." Each individual must decide for themselves not to kill. Justifying one's own killing because the being they killed did wrong, is not a stance I would feel moral with.
 
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VeganRachel

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I have been thinking. A lot. And a lot more. In fact, I've been thinking about everything since I started to question everything.
Is it good to question it, is it bad to question it?
I think it's good to question it and to challenge our beliefs because it can change the world and the way we feel on a day-to-day basis.

I would like to talk to you about my personal recent view on this whole thing Vegan. I believe in it with all my heart, that is the right thing to do. But as much I judged people what they eat, I recently started to understand some things on a deeper level. That is that (some may judge me for saying this but its the way I see it now, and that could change) chickens, and pigs are omnivores, so they eat other animals, and if a human eats them it's kind of a karmic debt for them as well. (not that I want to eat them ever again, just to make it clear)

Somehow I believe God, Universe... protects those animals who are karmically debt-free from their past or current life, and this can also change among animals and humans. We all know that a human can do bad things and get away with them in their current life if he believes that the world is an illusion and it doesn't matter if he do right or wrong. Yet all of this might sound a bit confusing at first but the more I think of it the more it makes sense to me. That we all are exactly where we need to be, and sure we as Vegans want animal liberation but most of us still didn't achieve our own liberation from suffering etc. not to mention how many other people don't have even access to information and a belief that we have.

As much as I am for not eating any animals, I also realize I care more about dogs than chickens for example. If I had to choose who to save between those two, it would be clearly dogs. I want to let you reflect and write how you feel about the fact that we indeed might love more one than the other.
Thank you for your honest statements. I do so much admire dedicated vegans (such as myself). I really admire vegan men, who not only buck the omnivore world, but also the male dominated world where men worship animal flesh as providing testosterone, virility, manliness, and strength.
Therefore they believe, any man who does not eat meat is feminine, inferior and weak.

Karmic debt, interesting thought. what about the death and destruction humans have done to the earth, the animals, and other humans?. Are human
animals therefore designed to become victims of cannibals or natural disasters?. Actually I think humans destroying the earth does result in us getting paid back.

There is a large difference between what a chicken or pig eats and a human animal. Humans are certainly both selfish and wasteful. In addition, humans thousands of years ago ate animals, but in much fewer quantities than today. The average American adult now consumes about 275 pounds of animal, plus 600 pounds of dairy products every year. In addition, the human animal was designed to be herbivorous frugivorous. Eating dead animals is a habit but quite unnatural and unhealthy for our anatomy.

One problem with focusing on other animals eating animals. I think it was Einstein who briefly became vegetarian. He witnessed caught
fishes who had eaten other fishes, and decided it was therefore okay for him to again eat animals as well. We can always make excuses of our behavior, and justify anything we choose to do.

Yes, many of us do love certain animals better, as most of us never interact with a cow, pig, or chicken, but we do with dogs or cats. This is
why humans get so disgusted at citizens who eat dogs or horses. We think of them as sentient companions.
 

Graeme M

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I didn't quite follow your argument, Master of Design. Are you saying that each living being will eventually be judged somehow and that behaviours now will be accounted for later? So while it is better to do good now, even if we don't it will eventually catch up with us. In the end, it's all good because the bad guys will get spanked?
 

Ayattem

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Thinking Is good. A lot of it yes - great. Until you start to question your own questions- then another layer protrudes itself into consideration. This is something of a call to more deeper contemplation. The innermore depth of quietness in knowing - attained only by way of direct experience. This is all there is beyond the debt. Paying off the debt starts with taking blood off the plate- remembering with our non vioelent nature. Yes you see by design- we are SO fortunate to not be in necessity to survive by violence. This is a great cause for appreciation to our one creator! In continuation. To experience yourself you must firstly be awake. Alert. Relaxed. Sit still. Have your eyes closed and allow everything - yet control nothing. Only hone in your aware senses of mind. That is - do not think but observe your inner cycles of breath and circulation- keeping no desire and yielding to no aversion. (To such thoughts of ‘this is stupid’ ‘waste of time’ or any feeling of discomfort) - just be equanimously neutral. Accept but make no categorical judgement- sit there and witness the passing sensation of breath as quietly as possible. Natural breath, remember. Maintain the wisdom of impermanence. All things arise and pass, unconditionally. Finally after half hour open your eyes and take walk, still observing the natural incoming and outgoing breath. That is all- you can embark on much higher familiarities with your purity and real happiness. Everything beyond you is s phantom of infinite potential. May each of your choices be humble.