The animal product industry creates life

Scott Joplin

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Many animals wouldn't exist at all if they hadn't been bred in order to provide something for us. Would it have been better if they had never existed in the first place?
 

Scott Joplin

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I certainly wouldn't want to be tortured. Can we take the case of a lamb, would it be better if it never had even a short life?
 

Pops

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If you were never born, would you even be aware of it? By not breeding animals for food, they wouldn't even exist. Your question is moot.
 

Scott Joplin

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If you were never born, would you even be aware of it? By not breeding animals for food, they wouldn't even exist. Your question is moot.
I wouldn't, of course, but I'm glad I was. The question is moot, yes, that's why I've asked it in the philosophy forum
 

rogerjolly

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Once upon a time there was a sperm called Henry. He was only teeny-weeny but was swimming uphill the very hardest and fastest he possibly could. Matilda was an egg making her way slowly downwards. If things were to turn out right for Henry then a great transformation would take place resulting eventually in an intelligent being. He would be called Scott Joplin. And he would go on to do great things in his life.

Of course neither Henry nor Matilda were aware of any of this. They had no brains and thus no sense of any purpose. Henry was just doing what a sperm does and Matilda was just doing what an egg does.

Unfortunately for Henry he was unknowingly in competition with a quarter of a billion other sperms all similar to him. Many of them could not swim as fast as Henry. Many of them could swim even harder and faster than Henry. A quarter billion is an enormous number. The odds were overwhelmingly stacked against Henry.

Sadly he never made it. The miracle of Scott Joplin was never to be.

In fact, none of the sperms managed to make the entire trip to Matilda and she was never fertilised.



If you were never born, would you even be aware of it?
I wouldn't, of course, but I'm glad I was.
Scott Joplin was never born. There was never even a “you” to be born. There was never a “you” to be aware of it. There was never an “I” to say, “I wouldn't ...” And there was never an “I” to say, “I'm glad I was.”

Many animals wouldn't exist at all if they hadn't been bred in order to provide something for us. Would it have been better if they had never existed in the first place?
Would it be better for whom?

Better for the beef, pork and milk producers? Yes, because they could then make their livings in ethical ways.

Better for consumers of animal products? Yes, because they would lead healthier lives.

Better for vegans? Yes, except that the need for veganism would be much reduced!

Better for the animals? There would have been no farm animals. Just millions of versions of our Scott Joplin story.

Roger.
 
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Forest Nymph

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Yes. Yes it would be better if they had not existed. To be brought into the world for the sole purpose of being tortured and killed, treated as an object for food is not much of a life. Also, if there weren't so many "food animals" we'd have a lot less greenhouse gas emissions. Did you know that animal ag is a main driver of climate change?
 

Forest Nymph

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If you were never born, would you even be aware of it? By not breeding animals for food, they wouldn't even exist. Your question is moot.
Your. Avatar. OMG. Lol!
 
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Scott Joplin

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Hehe, thanks for the story Roger. Ok, would it be better for the lamb to have had a short life rather than none?
 

Scott Joplin

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Yes. Yes it would be better if they had not existed. To be brought into the world for the sole purpose of being tortured and killed, treated as an object for food is not much of a life. Also, if there weren't so many "food animals" we'd have a lot less greenhouse gas emissions. Did you know that animal ag is a main driver of climate change?
Thanks for your answer. I don't think you can assume that they are all tortured. Regards greenhouse gas emissions, I have heard those claims I was wrong about veganism. Let them eat meat (but farm it right) | George Monbiot | Opinion | The Guardian
If Vegans Replaced Plants With Insects, They'd Harm Fewer Animals | HuffPost
 
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Precious

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I personally feel that if I would not kill that animal myself why should I eat. I feel so much closer to God not eating meat. Thou shout not kill. Becoming a vegan has awakened me.
 
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Forest Nymph

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Thanks for your answer. I don't think you can assume that they are all tortured. Regards greenhouse gas emissions, I have heard those claims I was wrong about veganism. Let them eat meat (but farm it right) | George Monbiot | Opinion | The Guardian
If Vegans Replaced Plants With Insects, They'd Harm Fewer Animals | HuffPost
Oh noes an Opinion piece from the Guardian! Whatever will I do? LOL!

Did you know that I'm a few months away from having a degree in environmental science? I'm guessing no, since you thought I'd be impressed with someone's opinion from the Guardian.

You should probably learn what a "source" is. You know, like a scientific journal.

Like this one: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms11382

Or an organization that employs people with a background in science to specifically research and report about climate change. Here's one:

https://climatenexus.org/climate-issues/food/animal-agricultures-impact-on-climate-change/

Have you ever heard of the UN? Or are you one of those people who think the UN is run by the Illumnati?

https://news.un.org/en/story/2006/11/201222-rearing-cattle-produces-more-greenhouse-gases-driving-cars-un-report-warns

It's also just scaring me to death that you're threatening me with an article on how vegans would kill less animals if they didn't eat plants. I'm guessing that you didn't know that if the world were to go vegan today, there wouldn't be any new crop land. The soy, grain and vegetable crops already exist, they're just being used to feed livestock instead of being fed directly to people.

It never fails to amaze me that otherwise intelligent people suddenly become the intellectual equivalent of a drunken toddler if you say you're going to take away their meat.
 
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Scott Joplin

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To me, causing suffering is more reprehensible than killing
 

Lou

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Over and over again I am impressed with the quality of the members of this forum.

The question that Scott posed is one that is really a troll like question. That he is still here and responding makes me believe that he is not a troll.

And the members here don't get freaked out but just calmly and patiently try to answer the question.

Nowadays, I don't really appreciate the "hypothetical" philosophical question. Although to be honest there were many a night I spent in the Freshman dorms stoned out of my mind trying to figure this kind of stuff out.

"Would it have been better if they had never existed in the first place?"

This is an unanswerable question. How could it be better or worse if they never existed?

I suppose you are asking from the animal's point of view. If they never existed they have no point of view. I guess it comes down to is a short life better than no life at all. All other things being equal, you would have to say no. But take the life of a typical chicken, broiler or layer, that life is a living hell.

Trolls like this kind of hypothetical question. It either has no answer or no good answer. Gets people discussing something that is ultimately pointless and/or useless.
 

Forest Nymph

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Over and over again I am impressed with the quality of the members of this forum.

The question that Scott posed is one that is really a troll like question. That he is still here and responding makes me believe that he is not a troll.

And the members here don't get freaked out but just calmly and patiently try to answer the question.

Nowadays, I don't really appreciate the "hypothetical" philosophical question. Although to be honest there were many a night I spent in the Freshman dorms stoned out of my mind trying to figure this kind of stuff out.

"Would it have been better if they had never existed in the first place?"

This is an unanswerable question. How could it be better or worse if they never existed?

I suppose you are asking from the animal's point of view. If they never existed they have no point of view. I guess it comes down to is a short life better than no life at all. All other things being equal, you would have to say no. But take the life of a typical chicken, broiler or layer, that life is a living hell.

Trolls like this kind of hypothetical question. It either has no answer or no good answer. Gets people discussing something that is ultimately pointless and/or useless.
I'm pretty sure you're right, he is a troll because he just rated my post "agree" then went right on back to making statements about how he likes his steak treated kindly.
 
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Scott Joplin

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It seems to me to be a case of pros and cons, nothing is black or white, I'm trying to figure it out, I value all opinions