Synthetic meat-Thoughts?

[Mork]

Synthetic meat is made well, pigs and cows are no longer needed and will no longer exist, is this what you want?

Is this the ideal scnario for you, because without the need for farm animals they will no longer exist, instead of loads of pigs world wide there will be far less much much fewer and mostly just wild bore would exist and the occasional pet pig.

Same for cows mostly just wild bulls / bovine millions and million of cattle would no longer have lives or breed.

Is that the ideal scenario for you?

(if we are lucky enough to get good synthetic meat that tastes lovely one day, and I bet that does happen eventually )

 

[silva]

OK......????
Truly one of the strangest first posts in a while

 

[Mork]

OK......????
Truly one of the strangest first posts in a while

So you dont want to answer the question directly? Obviously what you want means no/few pigs and cows would exist in the world, have you thought about what you/we are campaigning for and the consequences if you succeed?

I would agree with you I think thats better less suffering and death, but also it means very few farm animals would get any form of life at all

 

[Lou]

Is there something inherently good about domesticated farm animals.
I doubt they will go "extinct" in my lifetime.

There are almost 100 million cows in the US. Even if we could reduce their numbers by 99% that would leave 2 cows for every zoo in America.

 

[Mork]

Is there something inherently good about domesticated farm animals.
I doubt they will go "extinct" in my lifetime.

There are almost 100 million cows in the US. Even if we could reduce their numbers by 99% that would leave 2 cows for every zoo in America.

so you are for a massive reduction in lives of these animals in favor of less suffering? I dont disagree , they have low lives, and sometimes ethical slaughter, but saying that I think id rather be born into a low life and a low pain death than to have never existed at all?

I dont really know which way Id choose but its our cause so its worth thinking about

 

[Lou]

"ethical slaughter" or humane slaughter is an oxymoron. or perhaps a myth. a fantasy?

There isn't a beef or dairy cow alive today that has a life expectancy of over 5 years. Simply by reducing the breeding of them we can reduce the size of the herd by huge amounts each year.

IMHO that there is no positive balance in morality of a short miserable life over no life at all.

Funny, in the two years I've been on the VF no one has ever brought up this concept. but just this week its been brought up several times.

 

[Mork]

"ethical slaughter" or humane slaughter is an oxymoron. or perhaps a myth. a fantasy?

There isn't a beef or dairy cow alive today that has a life expectancy of over 5 years. Simply by reducing the breeding of them we can reduce the size of the herd by huge amounts each year.

IMHO that there is no positive balance in morality of a short miserable life over no life at all.

Funny, in the two years I've been on the VF no one has ever brought up this concept. but just this week its been brought up several times.

Would you say that no animals not even free range ones have some form of life? Do some of them not have a painless death (death being something all life has to have anyway)

Are you saying ud rather not exist at all rather than have a free range low life on a farm for 5 years and a quick painless death?

Id rather exist personally so Im a bit concerned about the dynamic of what we are striving for here. I think we need to be crystal clear about what we want 1st.

Certainly the high output livestock suffer the most and I think they would be better off not being born, I think I would spin a coin on that existence for myself putting myself in their shoes

 

[silva]

Would you say that no animals not even free range ones have some form of life? Do some of them not have a painless death (death being something all life has to have anyway)

Are you saying ud rather not exist at all rather than have a free range low life on a farm for 5 years and a quick painless death?

Id rather exist personally so Im a bit concerned about the dynamic of what we are striving for here. I think we need to be crystal clear about what we want 1st.

Certainly the high output livestock suffer the most and I think they would be better off not being born, I think I would spin a coin on that existence for myself putting myself in their shoes

Well you know you exist anyway, so you really don't have the option of saying whether you'd rather exist or not- like, it's just too late...
Farmed animals are bred to have certain body parts disproportionate to others, as in chickens that cannot stand due to enlarged breasts, cows subject to mastisis, they don't even naturally breed. People have created them. They live because of human greed
"Livestock" is nothing more than slavery and murder. You don't really need to wonder how you would feel if you were them, but why would humanity allow it to continue

 

[Mork]

Well you know you exist anyway, so you really don't have the option of saying whether you'd rather exist or not- like, it's just too late...
Farmed animals are bred to have certain body parts disproportionate to others, as in chickens that cannot stand due to enlarged breasts, cows subject to mastisis, they don't even naturally breed. People have created them. They live because of human greed
"Livestock" is nothing more than slavery and murder. You don't really need to wonder how you would feel if you were them, but why would humanity allow it to continue

so would you rather not be born than live the life of a free range farm animal?

Is it more or less ethical to stop free range farming ?

Also you make good points I dont disagree im not uncertain of my stance on the matter as of yet. Like would we bring a child into the world that has a health issue certainly the child would want it after being born but would we allow it to happen in the 1st place. Its a tricky one.

But taking into account the suffering and the pre choice idea I think mass production live stock should not be born

 

[David3]

Would you say that no animals not even free range ones have some form of life? Do some of them not have a painless death (death being something all life has to have anyway)

Are you saying ud rather not exist at all rather than have a free range low life on a farm for 5 years and a quick painless death?

Id rather exist personally so Im a bit concerned about the dynamic of what we are striving for here. I think we need to be crystal clear about what we want 1st.

Certainly the high output livestock suffer the most and I think they would be better off not being born, I think I would spin a coin on that existence for myself putting myself in their shoes

Hi Mork,

All (correction: some) of your arguments have some validity, but none of them are new.

You are not proposing any new tactics here. Your "new" approaches have been discussed for decades. Many of them are being pursued, and with some success.

Although you are thinking openly, you are not thinking outside the box. All of your debate points have existed for the 30 years that I've been vegan.

It's fine that you're thinking this way. However, as a new vegan, you frankly have a lot to learn. People here might be willing to discuss these things with you, but not if you talk in such an angry, raving way.

You're young. Please consider that some of us older vegans may know a bit more than you. We've done the activism. We've done the debates. You may have something to learn here.

 

[Mork]

Hi Mork,

All of your arguments have some validity, but none of them are new.

You are not proposing any new tactics here. Your "new" approaches have been discussed for decades. Many of them are being pursued, and with some success.

Although you are thinking openly, you are not thinking outside the box. All of your debate points have existed for the 30 years that I've been vegan.

It's fine that you're thinking this way. However, as a new vegan, you frankly have a lot to learn. People here might be willing to discuss these things with you, but not if you talk in such an angry, raving way.

You're young. Please consider that some of us older vegans may know a bit more than you. We've done the activism. We've done the debates. You may have something to learn here.

So would you rather not be born or would you have the life of a free range animal and a quick painless death?

Im open to learning from you, and Ive not insulted any1 further and that wasnt intended as an insult in the first place.

 

[David3]

So would you rather not be born or would you have the life of a free range animal and a quick painless death?

Im open to learning from you, and Ive not insulted any1 further and that wasnt intended as an insult in the first place.

If I weren't born, I would never have consciousness, and so I would never suffer the lack of life. So, I would rather not be born, than to be killed.

As far as "quick painless" death goes, please remember that free range animals are not generally killed in the field (except at some very small-scale meat operations). Rather, free range animals are forced into trucks and sent to slaughterhouses. There, the animals see and smell the sights of that slaughterhouse.
.

 

[Mork]

If I weren't born, I would never have consciousness, and so I would never suffer the lack of life. So, I would rather not be born, than to be killed.

As far as "quick painless" death goes, please remember that free range animals are not generally killed in the field (except at some very small-scale meat operations). Rather, free range animals are forced into trucks and sent to slaughterhouses. There, the animals see and smell the sights of that slaughterhouse.
.

so ud rather prevent an animal being born into an ok life (compared to the wild/nature) than to allow it to happen ? (painless fearless slaughter better than a natural death in nature) I think thats what you want for the animal rather than doing whats best for the animal

 

[David3]

So would you rather not be born or would you have the life of a free range animal and a quick painless death?

Im open to learning from you, and Ive not insulted any1 further and that wasnt intended as an insult in the first place.

Please remember, however, that VeganForum is not a place where we justify slaughter (of any kind).

If you want to discuss the ethics of slaughter, you will need to do that somewhere else. You're not the first person to try to insist on slaughter ethics debates in this forum.
.

 

[David3]

so ud rather prevent an animal being born into an ok life (compared to the wild/nature) than to allow it to happen ? I think thats what you want for the animal rather than doing whats best for the animal

Slaughterhouses are terrible places, my friend. I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone.
.

 

[David3]

so ud rather prevent an animal being born into an ok life (compared to the wild/nature) than to allow it to happen ? (painless fearless slaughter better than a natural death in nature) I think thats what you want for the animal rather than doing whats best for the animal

Wild animals will continue to be born (and die) in nature, regardless of the number of livestock animals that are born. Breeding and raising a livestock animal does not prevent wild animals from being born and killed in nature. Breeding and raising livestock animals just adds another animal - an animal that will experience the slaughterhouse.
.

 

[Lou]

Wild animals will continue to be born (and die) in nature, regardless of the number of livestock animals that are born. Breeding and raising a livestock animal does not prevent wild animals from being born and killed in nature. Breeding and raising livestock animals just adds another animal - an animal that will experience the slaughterhouse.
.

Um. I think without livestock there would be more wild animals.

 

[silva]

so ud rather prevent an animal being born into an ok life (compared to the wild/nature) than to allow it to happen ? (painless fearless slaughter better than a natural death in nature) I think thats what you want for the animal rather than doing whats best for the animal

Say hi to Jacobveganism and Graeme.

 

[David3]

Um. I think without livestock there would be more wild animals.

Possibly. But that's not the only tradeoff. Without livestock, there would also be less deforestation and less drought.
.

 

[Nekodaiden]

If synthetic (synthesized from animal cells in a lab) came out I wouldn't be interested in it. It will still have health issues associated with it, for starters, and may even be engineered in such a way to either be addictive or have hidden substances in it I wouldn't be interested in consuming.

There are plenty of animals that humans are not involved in breeding that have managed to survive as a species. I don't see why cows/pigs/chickens etc would be any different.