Scientists are re-thinking animal cognition

[Lou]

Good article here.
Do Animals Have Feelings?
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/what-the-crow-knows/580726/

I sort of wish the author maintained a tighter focus but a good article nonetheless. I also appreciated the author's sensitivity. It's a long article and I have not finished it yet.

The author of this article goes into birds, bees, and fish. Some great stuff on both the science and the philosophy of consciousness.

This whole thing reminds me of an interview I heard last year. The guy being interviewed was considered to be the world expert on animal intelligence, having written a bunch of books over several decades. His latest book contradicts some of his conclusions in his previous books. (It turns out that elephants aren't dumb - they just don't like pulling levers with their trunks) When asked about it he replied that he didn't think we were smart enough to understand animal intelligence.

 

[veganDreama]

Thanks for sharing. After rescuing rats and having 2 very smart guide dog's I've no doubt at all about animal intelligence and sensitivity. That's one of the reasons I went vegan in the first place.

 

[Forest Nymph]

On one hand this is great news, on the other hand the sentence "Do Animals Have Feelings?" seems ...sociopathic. Like a human born without normal empathy. Most non-vegans know that animals have feelings they just either don't care, or excuse their choice by saying animals aren't very intelligent, or they completely live in a weird cognitive dissonance. For example today a girl in my class who cut out red meat for the environment - who still consumes fish and chickens - expressed horror about a "poor chicken" being thrown off a cliff. I didn't say anything, because all of these people are in my practicum, we take multiple classes together, the timing and situation isn't good...but good lord.

 

[TofuRobot]

When asked about it he replied that he didn't think we were smart enough to understand animal intelligence.

I concur.

 

[Deleted member 3018]

I can't remember the name of the book. If I find it again, I'll put link here. I loved the book.

But anyway, many years ago I read this book about this person, who could read minds, and she could also read other animals minds, and not only human. As she met these domesticated animals, who were behaving badly or seemend to be depressed, she would look into their minds and see, their thoughts as pictures.
Often the birds, cats, dogs, horses, had memories of neglect or abuse, or sometimes they missed their friend, who had passed away.

Also, when I was a kid, I tried to send my thoughts to animals through pictures that I visualized in my head, because I figured that they don't undestand words.
But now I know that some animals understand some words. Like Koko the Gorilla for example. And non-human animals have their own way of communicating.

 

[Lou]

I can't remember the name of the book. If I find it again, I'll put link here. I loved the book.

I really don't want to take this thread off road but ....
There are a number of superheroes that have the ability to talk to animals.
Here is a good list
https://screenrant.com/15-superheroes-who-can-communicate-with-animals/

Koko is a good example but in some recent studies, scientists have proved that dogs not only understand things thru the tone of your voice but also understand the words. I think everyone who has ever had a dog and resorted to spelling O - U -T already knew this but that is part of what scientists like to do. Prove stuff we sort of take for granted. Like Gravity.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...ces-dogs-understand-tone-and-meaning-of-words

Even if you don't have time to read the article - check out the picture of the "test subjects" arrayed around the MRI. It put a smile on my face.

Getting back to the article that I originally cited.... (shoot I still haven't finished it). The thing that I found really interesting is the study on fish. I often here pescatarians claim that fish don't feel pain. But let me quote a little bit of the article.

In the lab, when trout lips are injected with acid, the fish do not merely respond at the site. They rock their entire bodies back and forth, hyperventilating, rubbing their mouths against their tanks’ sides or gravel bottoms. These behaviors cease when the fish are given morphine.

Such actions call the ethics of the research itself into question. But the experiences of lab fish are nothing compared with those endured by the trillions of aquatic animals that humans yank, unceremoniously, out of oceans and rivers and lakes every year. Some fish are still alive, hours later, when they’re shoveled into the sickly lit, refrigerated intake tubes of the global seafood supply chain.

Fish pain is something different from our own pain. In the elaborate mirrored hall that is human consciousness, pain takes on existential dimensions. Because we know that death looms, and grieve for the loss of richly imagined futures, it’s tempting to imagine that our pain is the most profound of all suffering. But we would do well to remember that our perspective can make our pain easier to bear, if only by giving it an expiration date. When we pull a less cognitively blessed fish up from the pressured depths too quickly, and barometric trauma fills its bloodstream with tissue-burning acid, its on-deck thrashing might be a silent scream, born of the fish’s belief that it has entered a permanent state of extreme suffering.
​

 

[Deleted member 3018]

Oh, Charles Xavier can read minds of non-human animals? That man is absolutely amazing. But I meant someone in real life... of course it's hard to prove that scientifically, but still...

I haven't read the whole article yet, but I more or less know this already. I have understood that dogs like low-pitched tone of voice, and cats like high-pitched tone. Horses like low-pitched, like this video demonstrates.

Some people I know, go around informing ice fishers, that they should, to avoid causing (any more) unnecessary pain, to kill the fish immediately, when it's taken away from it's natural habitat. Usually the fishers just tell them to shut up and mind their own business, but some take the advice... And who knows, maybe some even go vegan after understanding that fish also feel pain?

 

[Lou]

I'm not sure but I think Dr. Doolittle (in the book) read animal minds. In the movies, the audience could hear the animals talk but I don't think anyone else could.

 

[Deleted member 3018]

I'm sorry for bringing paranormal to science based thread. Somehow completely forgot that paranormal information isn't valid when talking about science. *facepalm* I'm stupid.

It's interesting that the Jains had this knowledge, that animals have consciousness, from the times of ancient india. Perhaps, if they would have wanted to prove their observations to the rest of the world, they would have figured out how to do it without pouring acid on fishes lips.

"When dogs hear speech, he explains, they seem to separate the meaning of words from the intonation, and each aspect of speech is analyzed independently. The left hemisphere of the brain processes meaning, while intonation is analyzed in the right hemisphere."
That's facinating, I had no idea.

"Dogs also have a left hemispheric bias for processing words with meaning," Hare says."
So dogs are kinda like human babies, in a way that they understand speech pretty well, but they lack the anatomy that they would need in order to create words? ...Well, I suppose that babies have the anatomy, but it's still weak at their age... But kinda like the same thing?

 

[Forest Nymph]

I'm sorry for bringing paranormal to science based thread. Somehow completely forgot that paranormal information isn't valid when talking about science. *facepalm* I'm stupid.

It's interesting that the Jains had this knowledge, that animals have consciousness, from the times of ancient india. Perhaps, if they would have wanted to prove their observations to the rest of the world, they would have figured out how to do it without pouring acid on fishes lips.

"When dogs hear speech, he explains, they seem to separate the meaning of words from the intonation, and each aspect of speech is analyzed independently. The left hemisphere of the brain processes meaning, while intonation is analyzed in the right hemisphere."
That's facinating, I had no idea.

"Dogs also have a left hemispheric bias for processing words with meaning," Hare says."
So dogs are kinda like human babies, in a way that they understand speech pretty well, but they lack the anatomy that they would need in order to create words? ...Well, I suppose that babies have the anatomy, but it's still weak at their age... But kinda like the same thing?

They're called Broca and Wernicke's areas. Even humans who have a damaged Broca's area can completely understand others, watch films, listen to music, they just speak and write poorly. The Wernicke's area is responsible for comprehension. Interestingly, even in humans, Wernicke's brain function seems to dominate, because people who study foreign language as adults will comprehend their second language better in music, film, speech and writing, while hesitating to speak or produce writing themselves. The actual function of producing language seems...special. I remember studying French and experiencing this.

What do you think? You are obviously a person who has English as a second language?

 

[TofuRobot]

They're called Broca and Wernicke's areas. Even humans who have a damaged Broca's area can completely understand others, watch films, listen to music, they just speak and write poorly. The Wernicke's area is responsible for comprehension. Interestingly, even in humans, Wernicke's brain function seems to dominate, because people who study foreign language as adults will comprehend their second language better in music, film, speech and writing, while hesitating to speak or produce writing themselves. The actual function of producing language seems...special. I remember studying French and experiencing this.

What do you think? You are obviously a person who has English as a second language?

I studied speech pathology for a year in college. I remember some of that stuff

Do they mean second language over first, out second language above *all* languages, I wonder?

Spanish is what I would call my third language (French is secund), and I will still default to French when I'm trying to think of a spanish word. It is the weirdest thing (and sometimes a little frustrating). I've always just assumed it's because i studied French longer, and I actually used it once, in France, for about a week. But that was in 1999, and i really don't use French anymore, but it ain't get it if my head, no matter how much Spanish I focus on.

 

[Lou]

Dogs can be multilingual too.
I've read that many Police dogs are trained in German. I guess that is traditional because they are German Shepards. But I think it also is supposed to help them not follow orders by others. Although that seems like a suspenders and belt approach.

I wonder if police dogs in Germany are taught in some other language.
Hmm. Most of our land mine-sniffing dogs come from South Africa. Are they trained in Khoisan? That would be cool.

 

[Lou]

Some people I know, go around informing ice fishers, that they should, to avoid causing (any more) unnecessary pain, to kill the fish immediately, when it's taken away from it's natural habitat. Usually the fishers just tell them to shut up and mind their own business, but some take the advice... And who knows, maybe some even go vegan after understanding that fish also feel pain?

Ha. I'd like to see Aquaman inform some ice fishers.

 

[betiPT]

My cat, Dos, we call him Schnookie, is super intelligent. He has demonstrated securing redundancy for shelter and food by making friends of the neighbors, and he is not a super friendly cat. He manages to get us to feed him multiple breakfasts or lunches by acting as though he has not been fed to members of the family. He also leaves some of his food for the pair of Wood Pigeons to eat, I think they are his friends, they hang out all day together.

 

[Paul Bradford]

He also leaves some of his food for the pair of Wood Pigeons to eat, I think they are his friends, they hang out all day together

Or perhaps he has ulterior motives for fattening them up.....

 

[betiPT]

My cat with pigeon friend

 

[Deleted member 3018]

They're called Broca and Wernicke's areas. Even humans who have a damaged Broca's area can completely understand others, watch films, listen to music, they just speak and write poorly. The Wernicke's area is responsible for comprehension. Interestingly, even in humans, Wernicke's brain function seems to dominate, because people who study foreign language as adults will comprehend their second language better in music, film, speech and writing, while hesitating to speak or produce writing themselves. The actual function of producing language seems...special. I remember studying French and experiencing this.

What do you think? You are obviously a person who has English as a second language?

Is it that obvious...? But I check almost every word from Google Translator! (I'm just trying to make a joke, I know it's stupid, sorry about that.)

I think you are completely right. English games, books, music and movies helps to speed up the learning process and makes it more enjoyable, text books give more insight.

Pronunciation is very hard and embarrassing. "Gravitation" easily sounds like growling and sneezing at the same time, when I try to pronounce it. "Sit" shifts easily into S*it and the word "that" into dad. In theory, I know how to pronounce, I often think in english, but when trying to speak the words out loud, it's much more difficult.

Thank you for teaching me this!

I took care of this Daschund, for, maybe... three years? I can't remember, but something like that. And sometimes he started making this noise, like trying to talk to me, while staring at me.

And there is is phenomena, which I don't consider being cute, but it just is... Dogs learn to "smile" to please their humans. Dogs are very willing to understand us, humans, but I think it would be better if we humans, would try to understand our dogs better.

 

[Deleted member 3018]

This is pretty interesting.

Also, some personal observations:
Sometimes, when I felt really badly anxious, cat would come besides me and purr, calming me down, she would stay like that, purring until I felt ok again. And after she had had really rough time, going to the vet, sometimes staying there all night, she clearly started having nightmares. She would move more in her sleep and make sad, scaredy-cat noises.

 

[Lou]

I don't understand that above video. I didn't think dogs had the kind of vision to watch TV. There weren't even that many audio cues unless you count the music.
I don't think you should let that dog watch Marley and Me.

Maybe not an example of animal cognition but a good example of animal expressing emotions/feelings.

 

[Deleted member 3018]

I had the same problem in mind about the dog video... But somehow the dog got really emotional. Maybe it was the music? Or maybe he understood to words?

Awesome bull, he is such a smart lil' buddy. Hopefully he gets another ball soon

I freaking love Think Like A Horse. I had forgotten this video and just found it again.

So these horses share food, show sings of friendship.

I KNOW that animals have feelings, but still I find this topic interesting, and I think I'll never get bored.
The greatest distinction between humans and other animals is that we humans have abnormally large neocortex, in where rational thinking, language and controlling of emotions happen. Or something like that, correct me if I'm wrong.