Prop 12 passes in california by 60 percent

Forest Nymph

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In the state of California, caged hens will be phased out by 2022 and they must have one square foot of space by 2020. Calves must have more space by 2020 and breeding pigs by 2022 (I really don't understand the reasoning on the difference in time here).

Problems with Prop 12:

1) It's really sad that a proposition has to be passed to get these meager allowances which are not enough.
2) 60 percent is decent but you'd think humanity would at least offer 80-85 percent of people who think that maybe animals should at least have space to turn around in their jail cell

Good things about Prop 12:

1) It's a start and calls public attention to the problem
2) It will make eggs, pork and veal more expensive, which I think is the answer to ending factory farming
3) California will also not sell animal products from other states who don't abide by these laws, which is a push to these other states and another step towards local focus
 
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rogerjolly

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It will make eggs, pork and veal more expensive, which I think is the answer to ending factory farming
This is a great small step in the right direction. Price hikes really work. And it is not just animal welfare improvements that can help advance the cause of veganism in this way. Fiscal policies can do an even better job.

Recently “sin” taxes in the UK have been used against cheap ciders, sugar and salt. They have been extremely effective in bringing down consumption.

Yesterday’s report from scientists at the Nuffield Department of Population Health at Oxford University says that 80% taxes on the constituents of a typical full English breakfast would prevent nearly 6,000 deaths a year and save the National Health Service more than £730m.

And there is nothing that governments like to hear more than, “It will save money.” That impresses them far more than preventing suffering in animals or in saving lives both animal and human.

Roger.
 
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Lou

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Yea!

It is a tiny step. But at least it is in the right direction.

And although i see the similarities and parallels, it is not a "sin tax". Animal welfare laws do not intentionally increase the cost of the product.

In fact, we were just discussing this over coffee this morning. Does companies like Tyson increase the price of chicken in California as a way to punish California voters, and also to discourage other states from passing similar laws. On the other hand, Animal Rights Activists hope they do raise prices. So they might not - just to **** us off.

In today's political environment 60% is actually pretty good. you don't see too many bigger margins in elections. Also, keep in mind that many Pro-animal people didn't vote or campaign for this issue. PETA was against it.
 

Nekodaiden

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To anyone interested in the truth behind this proposition:

Watch:

 

Forest Nymph

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Yea!

It is a tiny step. But at least it is in the right direction.

And although i see the similarities and parallels, it is not a "sin tax". Animal welfare laws do not intentionally increase the cost of the product.

In fact, we were just discussing this over coffee this morning. Does companies like Tyson increase the price of chicken in California as a way to punish California voters, and also to discourage other states from passing similar laws. On the other hand, Animal Rights Activists hope they do raise prices. So they might not - just to **** us off.

In today's political environment 60% is actually pretty good. you don't see too many bigger margins in elections. Also, keep in mind that many Pro-animal people didn't vote or campaign for this issue. PETA was against it.
Oh I know right? PETA was against it for not being good enough, and I sympathize completely but on the other hand I still voted for it because I'm like...less torture is less torture, for the animal in question that bit of space to turn around means a tremendous amount, and it does bring attention to the issue in a way that it could improve incrementally.

I get that people could get complacent with a non-solution, so they feel good they're doing something, sort of like when people call themselves flexitarian: research shows this term is meaningless and in many cases the people who use the term don't even actually eat less meat than before, they just might make a conscious effort to choose veggie burgers once and a while in restaurants, or buy more vegan products at the store...which may actually do some good from a market standpoint for vegetarian or vegan companies but not directly on animal flesh consumption. So I thought Prop 12 might be kind of like that, it looks super bad to PETA because a bunch of suburban people will pretend they're doing something good by voting for this measure that actually isn't good enough HOWEVER like the trend to buy more vegan cookies, it may indirectly and incrementally still cause social change.

At least that's how I see it.
 
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Lou

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@ Forest Nymph

Yes, that is my take on it at all.

There was an article I read today. If I can find it I'll put the link at the bottom.
But basically, it said that according to polls, although there aren't that many vegans and vegetarians, more people are trying to reduce their consumption of meat. that is why you see more vegetarian alternatives in the grocery store and restaurant. So I guess we get to thank the Flexitarians for that.
 

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Oh I know right? PETA was against it for not being good enough, and I sympathize completely but on the other hand I still voted for it because I'm like...less torture is less torture, for the animal in question that bit of space to turn around means a tremendous amount, and it does bring attention to the issue in a way that it could improve incrementally.
Is it? According to the information I'm reading, there really was no change. HSUS was working with egg industry all along, since prop 2 (which was voted for by Californians in 2008, not only giving animals much more space, but eventually freeing them by 2015 - something that was ignored and not implemented). The current cage "expansions" are anything but - they just wanted the people to think they were so they could codify it into law.

I wouldn't hold my breath to see if there really are no cages come 2022. Another promise that won't be implemented.
 

Forest Nymph

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Is it? According to the information I'm reading, there really was no change. HSUS was working with egg industry all along, since prop 2 (which was voted for by Californians in 2008, not only giving animals much more space, but eventually freeing them by 2015 - something that was ignored and not implemented). The current cage "expansions" are anything but - they just wanted the people to think they were so they could codify it into law.

I wouldn't hold my breath to see if there really are no cages come 2022. Another promise that won't be implemented.
Prop 2 was vague, Prop 12 is more specific. The problem with Prop 2 is that it only hazily threw out an ideal not an actual plan or details in hard numbers that farmers would actually be required to follow. It wasn't ignored, it just didn't have the hard details required to implement a law into real action. You can look up California Prop 2 you don't have to take someone on YouTube's word for it.
 
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Lou

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It is a small step in many ways. One thing I haven't seen talked about enough is that it does reach across state boundaries. California creates a lot of meat and eggs for other states' consumption. And I am pretty sure that the meat and eggs California imports also have to meet this standard.

We will have to see what happens to meat and egg prices after it goes into effect. But it's sort of a win-win situation for us vegans. If meat and egg prices go up, then some people will eat less meat and eggs and want to explore other protein sources to save money. And if the price doesn't come up it will give ammunition to us when the next round gets started.
 
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Hoochmonkey

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While the prop does point the arrow in the right direction, we need to see larger efforts at an increased and accelerated pace at an international level if our planet has any chance staving off the coming or at the very least slow down the destruction that is coming. I’ve personally come to this discussion late in my life and now wish to make those changes personally.
 
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