Policy re bigotry of various types?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mischief

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
4,429
Reaction score
5,392
Location
U.S.A.
Does this board have, or is it going to have, a policy regarding posts expressing anti-homisexuality, anti-trans, anti-Semitic, and/or other bigoted viewpoints?

I specifically mentioned the three I did because someone has hit that trifecta in the "Why men are afraid of plant based meat" thread. Plus misogyny, of course.

I think you're going to have to address it. Whatever you do, you're going to lose members, but you need to give some thought to how you want this board to be perceived.

As I've stated before, I'm not a fan of deleting posts. If someone shows their derriere, let it hang out forever for the world to see. By deleting posts, you're just hiding what has already been done.
 
  • 👍
Reactions: silva and KLS52

Nekodaiden

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2017
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
844
Age
46
Lifestyle
Vegan
Does this board have, or is it going to have, a policy regarding posts expressing anti-homisexuality, anti-trans, anti-Semitic, and/or other bigoted viewpoints?

I specifically mentioned the three I did because someone has hit that trifecta in the "Why men are afraid of plant based meat" thread. Plus misogyny, of course.

I think you're going to have to address it. Whatever you do, you're going to lose members, but you need to give some thought to how you want this board to be perceived.

As I've stated before, I'm not a fan of deleting posts. If someone shows their derriere, let it hang out forever for the world to see. By deleting posts, you're just hiding what has already been done.
Oh I agree. If people here are not allowed to express their heart felt views on controversial subjects without automatons coming out of the woodwork and calling them names and seeking their banishment, you'll lose members, and potential members. If this is put into the rules, it will
also discourage participation from a sizeable portion of otherwise would be members.

But! You will save the portion of members who happen to agree with those views (whatever they are).

The would be member might seek advise on being vegan, or vegan related topics, but will also get the impression that this means more than being vegan, and associate veganism also with being pro or anti (name the controversial topic here).

If that's the way this board goes, I'll be among the first to leave. I understand 'freedom of speech' and expression may or may not apply to message boards and are ultimately up to staff's ideas, but I also think that being too hardline to cater to a few is going discourage people from being real here.

And *sigh*, this petition comes from an American.
 

Andy_T

Little green mod
Staff member
Supporter
Joined
Dec 20, 2014
Messages
5,093
Reaction score
5,007
Location
Hannover, Germany
Lifestyle
Vegan
Having now seen the thread in question, my view is that we definitely should have a position regarding such behaviour.

We should ask ourselves very critically whether such behaviour should have a place on a vegan board, in 2020.
 

Nekodaiden

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2017
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
844
Age
46
Lifestyle
Vegan
Having now seen the thread in question, my view is that we definitely should have a position regarding such behaviour.

We should ask ourselves very critically whether such behaviour should have a place on a vegan board, in 2020.
*rolls eyes* I can see where you will fall in the discussion based on your likes in the other thread.

Veganforum.org = where it's not only vegan, but you must also not have non-mainstreme views of homosexuality, transgenderism, the American version of history, be in support of 3rd wave Feminism, subscribe to any and every form of new social justice because it's trendy, not have political views on Israel or any other topic that may be controversial.

You'll save some of the clique that has migrated over from VV, but it will hurt membership.
 

Bob Who

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
48
Reaction score
67
Age
61
Lifestyle
Vegan
I want to briefly comment that I learned so many new acronyms in the aforementioned thread, that I spent a lot of time looking them up. So many things I didn't know were "things". I guess I really am an anachronism .

Roy: " Ignorance is bliss."
Lowell: "Yeah, but it doesn't beat unconsciousness."

From the tv show "Wings".

Substitute signature line: Indeed, the best of my personal philosophy has been gleened from T-Shirts, TV, and Billboards.
 

beancounter

The Fire That Burns Within
Joined
Jun 3, 2012
Messages
4,426
Reaction score
1,980
Location
In the Church of the Poisoned Mind
IMO, nothing short of hate speech should be disallowed.

Political correctness has a way of killing discussion. Especially since new words and terms are constantly being added to the naughty list.

Proponents of PC tend to be offended by everything, and in a weird way actually seek out opportunities to label others.

IMO, they are the toxin that slowly kills message boards...
 

Indian Summer

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
8,731
Reaction score
6,469
Location
Oxfordshire, UK
Lifestyle
Vegan
Does this board have, or is it going to have, a policy regarding posts expressing anti-homisexuality, anti-trans, anti-Semitic, and/or other bigoted viewpoints?
We do not really have anything beyond our rules & terms at the moment.

This seemed to be sufficient on VV. VF didn't actually have any rules at all until I took over the ownership.

I'm not usually a big fan of elaborate rules and policies, but I acknowledge that unfortunately our current rules, in this day and age, are no longer sufficient.

I hope to develop something like a brief, but sensible code of conduct that most people should be able to agree with, as a supplement to the rules. This is probably not something that will come into force in the immediate future as it requires some careful consideration, and I have a number of other priorities at the moment.
 
  • 👍
Reactions: Andy_T

Kellyr

Active Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2018
Messages
163
Reaction score
148
Lifestyle
Vegan
I rarely, rarely, rarely ever post here. I read the thread in question with interest. I see a lot of head-butting going on. I honestly don't agree with the sentiments that were presented in the thread by the supposed perpetrator, however, I don't see this person running around the board posting "hate speak" in every single thread. THAT, my friends, would be a troll.

He spoke his opinion in regards to the subject that was at hand in the thread. Some people didn't agree with it and some decided this person needs to leave immediately (as a note, that person has been a member on VF before VV merged - I actually think it's kind of rude to tell an established member to leave, especially when you're new here - but then that's my view... he was here before you got here and now you're telling him to leave. I suppose VV members see it vice-versa, however.)

My point in all of this is that when we live in an echo chamber we learn nothing new. The person in question made a good point - this is a vegan forum. Period. And yes, while it seems the status quo is that most vegans are liberal-leaning and have mainstream acceptance views on some of the subjects brought up, not all are.

Do we want to welcome all vegans here or only those who fit specific cultural, social, economical, religious requirements? How does forcing conservative-leaning vegans out of the thread help the cause of veganism as a whole? I actually see a lot of irony in that the person perceived as being intolerant is now not being tolerated by those who want tolerance.

Again. I actually do NOT relate at all to the perpetrators opinions - I read his post thinking "...um...what??" but that was his opinion on the requested subject at hand.

Don't ask for opinions or questions if you're afraid of what the answer will be.

If people find his posts upsetting there is an IGNORE function. Feel free to use it. I've got one person here on ignore myself because I have a PERSONAL issue with that person. But just because I dislike the person doesn't mean that they need to leave immedately. There are no victims here - only volunteers. You have choices to make this board a pleasant experience for yourself without forcing everyone to agree with you.
 

Sax

Active Member
Supporter
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
662
Reaction score
845
Age
34
Location
Missouri
Lifestyle
Vegan
Anything short of personal attacks, hate speech, and incitement of violence should be allowed.

I'm very liberal but I don't want this to be a liberal safe space or echo chamber. We should want everyone interested in veganism to feel welcome here, as long as they contribute with good faith and civility.

If action needs to be taken I think a warning/temporary ban with the possibility of a permanent ban would be better than tightening restrictions on everybody's speech.
 
  • 👍
Reactions: beancounter

Sax

Active Member
Supporter
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
662
Reaction score
845
Age
34
Location
Missouri
Lifestyle
Vegan
Also let's not assume queer/trans people or any other minority are so fragile that we must shield them from opposing viewpoints.
 

Mischief

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
4,429
Reaction score
5,392
Location
U.S.A.
I rarely, rarely, rarely ever post here. I read the thread in question with interest. I see a lot of head-butting going on. I honestly don't agree with the sentiments that were presented in the thread by the supposed perpetrator, however, I don't see this person running around the board posting "hate speak" in every single thread. THAT, my friends, would be a troll.

He spoke his opinion in regards to the subject that was at hand in the thread. Some people didn't agree with it and some decided this person needs to leave immediately (as a note, that person has been a member on VF before VV merged - I actually think it's kind of rude to tell an established member to leave, especially when you're new here - but then that's my view... he was here before you got here and now you're telling him to leave. I suppose VV members see it vice-versa, however.)

My point in all of this is that when we live in an echo chamber we learn nothing new. The person in question made a good point - this is a vegan forum. Period. And yes, while it seems the status quo is that most vegans are liberal-leaning and have mainstream acceptance views on some of the subjects brought up, not all are.

Do we want to welcome all vegans here or only those who fit specific cultural, social, economical, religious requirements? How does forcing conservative-leaning vegans out of the thread help the cause of veganism as a whole? I actually see a lot of irony in that the person perceived as being intolerant is now not being tolerated by those who want tolerance.

Again. I actually do NOT relate at all to the perpetrators opinions - I read his post thinking "...um...what??" but that was his opinion on the requested subject at hand.

Don't ask for opinions or questions if you're afraid of what the answer will be.

If people find his posts upsetting there is an IGNORE function. Feel free to use it. I've got one person here on ignore myself because I have a PERSONAL issue with that person. But just because I dislike the person doesn't mean that they need to leave immedately. There are no victims here - only volunteers. You have choices to make this board a pleasant experience for yourself without forcing everyone to agree with you.
I didn't ask K. to leave. Please reread the thread and have the courtesy to acknowledge that error. To my knowledge, the person who wants him to leave was not a member of VV - at least I never encountered him there.

When I have encountered bigotry IRL, I have always spoken up against it. That doesn't make me special - it's the least anyone with any integrity at all can do - try to not let it flourish. Because if you don't speak up against it, you become equally as guilty, through laziness, or fear, or simply because you can't be bothered. That's a sad commentary on anyone's character - that they couldn't be bothered to speak up.

The people who are targets of bigotry have to deal with it every day of their lives. It's the least any of the rest of us can do to speak up when it's expressed right in front of us.
 

Mischief

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
4,429
Reaction score
5,392
Location
U.S.A.
A question to all of you who have the time and energy to post in this thread, but didn't comment on N's posts in the other thread:

Do you disagree with his views?
 
  • 👍
Reactions: Andy_T

Kellyr

Active Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2018
Messages
163
Reaction score
148
Lifestyle
Vegan
By all means, Mischief, challenge bigotry when you encounter it. One could argue this is exactly why such controversial posts should be allowed so they can be challenged in the open.
 

Mischief

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
4,429
Reaction score
5,392
Location
U.S.A.
By all means, Mischief, challenge bigotry when you encounter it. One could argue this is exactly why such controversial posts should be allowed so they can be challenged in the open.
So, I'm to be one of two voices on this board to challenge bigotry while the rest of you sit by?
 
  • 👍
Reactions: Andy_T

Amy SF

Dweller in nature
Supporter
Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Messages
26,183
Reaction score
17,561
Age
60
Location
I'm liek, in Cali, dude.
Lifestyle
Vegetarian
In my own experience on this kind of message board, there’s no reason to ask anyone to leave if all they’re doing is offering alternative viewpoints. If they don’t like the discussions, they choose to leave on their own. The only exception I can see, of course, is if someone engages in overt hostility and bigotry towards other members, which cannot be tolerated. Every member should be treated with respect, even if you don’t agree with their views.
 

Mischief

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
4,429
Reaction score
5,392
Location
U.S.A.
In my own experience on this kind of message board, there’s no reason to ask anyone to leave if all they’re doing is offering alternative viewpoints. If they don’t like the discussions, they choose to leave on their own. The only exception I can see, of course, is if someone engages in overt hostility and bigotry towards other members, which cannot be tolerated. Every member should be treated with respect, even if you don’t agree with their views.
The issue isn't about asking anyone to leave, or banning anyone.
 

beancounter

The Fire That Burns Within
Joined
Jun 3, 2012
Messages
4,426
Reaction score
1,980
Location
In the Church of the Poisoned Mind
One big issue with the PC crowd is that everything is all or nothing or black or white.

They seem to lack the ability to understand nuance or that there are possibly shades of Gray in-between the black and the white.

Heaven forbid that you should agree with part of a post, but not all of it. Either way, you're a racist...
 

Mischief

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
4,429
Reaction score
5,392
Location
U.S.A.
One big issue with the PC crowd is that everything is all or nothing or black or white.

They seem to lack the ability to understand nuance or that there are possibly shades of Gray in-between the black and the white.

Heaven forbid that you should agree with part of a post, but not all of it. Either way, you're a racist...
Too bad you were prevented from using your free speech rights to say what you disagreed with. Oh, wait....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.