Suggestion New rule: premises for discussion

[Second Summer]

I didn't use to be a big supporter of detailed and elaborate rules, but some of the more heated arguments here on VF we have seen in recent months have convinced me that our modest set of rules may need to be amended.

To me, part of the problem appears to be that a minority of members have a completely different world-view than the rest, which has unfortuantely lead to some hostile exchanges. I think a small amount of heated debate can make life more interesting and entertaining, but when it's too much it just turns people off. It was with this in mind that I crafted the below draft for a new rule, which I'm hoping you can review and give feedback on. E.g. ideas for improvements (such as language or details to modify, remove or add), or reasons why this would be a good or bad approach:

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Below is a list of premises we believe have been proven to be true beyond reasonable doubt. They serve as a foundation for further discussions. Therefore, unless it's made clear that the thread starter welcomes discussion on one or more of these, we will delete any post that denies or attempts to cast doubt about the premises. We consider such responses to be disruptive and off-topic.

1. The Earth is a planet, is roughly in the shape of a globe, and is orbiting a star.
2. The Earth is currently in a phase of climate change caused by human activities.
3. There are no successful conspiracies that require the involvement of virtually all governments in the world.
4. Genocides against certain populations, such as the Holocaust, have happened.
5. COVID-19 is caused by a coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) and the virus originated in animals.
6. Soya products do not make you gay or turn males into females.

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[Lou]

One would think that those things go without saying.

 

[beancounter]

When I said that soy will turn you into a women, I was joking. I could have sworn that I included a smiley face with the comment....

Personally, I'm fine with all of these premises.

Below is a list of premises we believe have been proven to be true beyond reasonable doubt. They serve as a foundation for further discussions. Therefore, unless it's made clear that the thread starter welcomes discussion on one or more of these, we will delete any post that denies or attempts to cast doubt about the premises. We consider such responses to be disruptive and off-topic.

1. The Earth is a planet, is roughly in the shape of a globe, and is orbiting a star.
2. The Earth is currently in a phase of climate change caused by human activities.
3. There are no successful conspiracies that require the involvement of virtually all governments in the world.
4. Genocides against certain populations, such as the Holocaust, have happened.
5. COVID-19 is caused by a coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) and the virus originated in animals.
6. Soya products do not make you gay or turn males into females.

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[Sax]

2. Unfortunately many people don't believe in human caused climate change, nevertheless I'd want these folks to feel welcome if they're genuinely interested in veganism. This belief should be as absurd as flat eartherism but that's not the world we live in and there are plenty of intelligent well meaning people who have this one wrong. Maybe this issue can be dealt with case-by-case instead of having a blanket ban.

I bet a new member reading the rules will have a WTF moment when they see this

 

[SapphireLightning]

1. Soya products do not make you gay or turn males into females.

Imagine the power and sway we would hold if that was a thing...

"Stop torturing animals or we will shoot this soya dart at you!" Would only be max 90% or 50% effective depending, though....

 

[Lou]

Imagine the power and sway we would hold if that was a thing...

Some males want to turn into females. Would soy milk contain a warning or would that be one of those things they put on the carton to promote it?

I just checked the soy milk in my frig. Didn't soy milk used to come with a claim on the label about the benefits of soy. Like something like " a diet high in fiber is shown to reduce the chance of colon cancer"? It's not there anymore. what happened?

 

[Nekodaiden]

I didn't use to be a big supporter of detailed and elaborate rules, but some of the more heated arguments here on VF we have seen in recent months have convinced me that our modest set of rules may need to be amended.

To me, part of the problem appears to be that a minority of members have a completely different world-view than the rest, which has unfortuantely lead to some hostile exchanges. I think a small amount of heated debate can make life more interesting and entertaining, but when it's too much it just turns people off. It was with this in mind that I crafted the below draft for a new rule, which I'm hoping you can review and give feedback on. E.g. ideas for improvements (such as language or details to modify, remove or add), or reasons why this would be a good or bad approach:

-----------------

Below is a list of premises[1] we believe have been proven to be true beyond reasonable doubt. They serve as a foundation for further discussions. Therefore, unless it's made clear that the thread starter welcomes discussion on one or more of these, we will delete any post that denies or attempts to cast doubt about the premises.[2] We consider such responses to be disruptive and off-topic.

1. The Earth is a planet, is roughly in the shape of a globe, and is orbiting a star.
2. The Earth is currently in a phase of climate change caused by human activities.
3. There are no successful conspiracies that require the involvement of virtually all governments in the world.
4. Genocides against certain populations, such as the Holocaust, have happened.
5. COVID-19 is caused by a coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) and the virus originated in animals.
6. Soya products do not make you gay or turn males into females.

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My numeration [1..2..3 etc]

[1] Who is "we"? This isn't a closed board where people must agree to any set of premises before participating.
[2] The enforcement of any opinion starts with the enforcement of premises, and proceeds with the re-enforcement of premises. For example, out of 100 news stories about an impending meteor impact on earth, not one questions the basis of such information or the sources (Agency X,Y,Z). The people believing the premise are therefore influenced by factors such as:

A) Logical fallacy: Argumentum ad Populum or Bandwagon fallacy. (100 of 100 stories (they are exposed to) do not question the premise and therefore the premise must be true by the persons influenced by this logical fallacy.) or
A1) The greater percentage (>50% and upwards) lends a greater credibility to the premise being true (by the persons influenced by this logical fallacy)

B) Blind Loyalty or argument form Authority (Agency X,Y,Z) are the only sources worth considering as they are the only sources either mentioned or lauded as credible/scientific/noteworthy/etc.

C) Expressions of emotions based on the premise. Whether that be love, fear, hate, concern, emotions are strong influencing factors in reinforcement of a premise, and any human who engages them is likely to feel highly uncomfortable at the thought that they were manipulated on a false premise. Most people who are emotionally driven (first) are highly uncomfortable with the idea that their emotions (as well intentioned as they may be), are being used to manipulate them or worse, expose them for being foolish.

To be sure, a faith in a premise helps ensure the continuity (even enjoy-ability) of a story. No one, for example, could really identify with the characters or varies human dramas that are played out in a series like "Star Trek" or "Star Wars" if they actively doubted space or space travel.

I believe all that is being attempted here is thought control either because one or more members dislikes/feels uncomfortable by/disagrees with questioning various premises. And further, it is being done under the guise of "community" to hide this fact.

Should it pass, I expect that a number of my posts will be deleted because they do not conform to some of the premises stated, and this will be a win for those who advocate for thought control because they cannot otherwise illustrate/prove their beliefs other than using various logical fallacies or emotional appeals.

In so doing, it will also discourage/help eliminate individuals from this board. In this sense, the board will be a form of veganism+ - not only for the encouragement of being vegan (a minority position to begin with) - but also for the enforcement of the "correct" worldview (whatever that may be) by force rather than by reason.

 

[Nekodaiden]

Apparently, deviating from the official 911 narrative would still be acceptable under this policy. Why wasn't it included? Perhaps because unlike the subjects listed in the Original Post, this is one that the Original Poster finds acceptable - or perhaps it just hasn't come up yet "in conflict" to illustrate a "problem to address"?

What a wonderful leader Bush was, after all (wink wink).

 

[silva]

I would have thought all the acceptance of animal farming, and human hierarchy of animal species should be the one to be avoided here, a vegan forum
I don't see what personal opinions of the above have to do with the premise of this group
To me I don't like it engaged because they're topics that get people to go down a path of agreement, after all how many people have total trust in things that they have no personal egagement? It quickly erodes when we see incorrect and faulty logic and people get p'ssd off and angry
But other than that, why even bring it up?

 

[Second Summer]

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts. I'll think it over.

I agree that seeing these topics mentioned in the rules might seem weird to new members. But seeing threads go down in flames because of someone arguing that the Earth is flat might seem equally weird to them. A solution might be to rephrase the premises to something a bit more generic sounding.

 

[beforewisdom]

I didn't use to be a big supporter of detailed and elaborate rules, but some of the more heated arguments here on VF we have seen in recent months have convinced me that our modest set of rules may need to be amended.

To me, part of the problem appears to be that a minority of members have a completely different world-view than the rest, which has unfortuantely lead to some hostile exchanges. I think a small amount of heated debate can make life more interesting and entertaining, but when it's too much it just turns people off. It was with this in mind that I crafted the below draft for a new rule, which I'm hoping you can review and give feedback on. E.g. ideas for improvements (such as language or details to modify, remove or add), or reasons why this would be a good or bad approach:

I'm enjoying the sweet spot of having been a vegan for over 30 years.

I have seen all of the threads and all of the trolls before. Repetition has left me unimpressed and my chain unjerkable.

I log in here once a week after getting an email of the weekly highlights. I pass up the flotsam, go to what is worthy, and post if I think I will enjoy it.

For people who have not been inured to vegan web board dram over time my suggestions would be

1. Check the facts. Check the sources. If they facts aren't there, either politely point that out before moving on or just move on.
2. People who are intentionally trying to push buttons feed off the attention. They get hurt if you don't respond to it. It sends the message that they are not worthy of a response. Send that message. Do not respond to them. You will save time to.
3. In regards to number 2, push yourself away from your computer, put your phone down, passively watch you feelings and thoughts come and go. Make that a habit. After a while you will learn things about yourself and you will learn not to respond instantly to people jerking your chain. It will become a lot harder for that type of person to jerk your chain.

 

[Hog]

Indian Summer is on target.

Nevertheless, I learned some valuable lessons from the climate debate. Most importantly, I became more alert to all our environmental problems. Secondly, Indian Summer encouraged us to cite our sources. Citing sources is a pain in the rear end. Yet, citing sources is possibly the best way to have an intelligent conversation about a new topic. I need to become more like Lou who cites his sources.

 

[Nekodaiden]

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts. I'll think it over.

I agree that seeing these topics mentioned in the rules might seem weird to new members. But seeing threads go down in flames because of someone arguing that the Earth is flat might seem equally weird to them. A solution might be to rephrase the premises to something a bit more generic sounding.

I'd like you to point out exactly which threads "went down in flames" (and please explain exactly what this means) simply because someone was arguing the earth was flat.

Or by expressing doubt in climate change (I in fact challenged you to convince me without using logical fallacies and all you could do is hit the disagree button then remain mute) - and shortly after this thread appeared.

Some people here may have a different view of the holocaust (that is, the one that is supposed to have happened during WW2). Btw a "different view" doesn't automatically mean "it didn't happen".

If you think no conspiracies involving nearly all governments don't happen you might be willfully ignorant. All you have to do is look at the most recent "pandemic" where the flu (coronavirus) has shut down numerous nations and caused economic chaos. That doesn't mean everyone in government is "in on it" of course, but that they are all listening to the same "authorities" and pressured by media to "do something". You can also conveniently ignore quantum dot tattoos, Bill & Melinda Gates funding of the WHO and numerous other influential agencies, ID2020, the Vaccine alliance, various influential politicians, extremely wealthy individuals and organizations calling for world government (now and in decades past) and a whole list of other factors that governments are influenced by.

Of course, none of these things have to do directly with veganism and nearly all of them (save the last involving soy and gender influence which seems out of place) are something I have contrary views on so it seems very apparent to me that I am being targeted.

Here is something everyone should notice. VeggieViews did not have a lot of active participants prior to merging with this board, although it had lots of members. How many people have been pressured to leave or been banned because for spurious reasons?

 

[beancounter]

Here is something everyone should notice. VeggieViews did not have a lot of active participants prior to merging with this board, although it had lots of members. How many people have been pressured to leave or been banned because for spurious reasons?

People left for a variety of reasons (just like any board...).

Bans only occurred when the rules were violated. New members were required to agree to the (explicitly written) rules prior to joining.

99% of the time, bans were temporary.

 

[Hog]

@ Indian Summer please do not take this post seriously.

1. The Earth is a planet, is roughly in the shape of a globe, and is orbiting a star. I disagree. The earth is not spherical in shape. A sphere is an imaginary object that does not exist in the real world. The sun also orbits the earth.
2. The Earth is currently in a phase of climate change caused by human activities. Anthropogenic climate change is technically a theory based on observations. I am very concerned about the potential impact of climate change on animals and other hogs like myself.
3. There are no successful conspiracies that require the involvement of virtually all governments in the world. There are lots of people who believe in unusual conspiracy theories. They can not help but believe what they believe.
4. Genocides against certain populations, such as the Holocaust, have happened. I disagree. Genocide is a continuous ongoing problem.
5. COVID-19 is caused by a coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) and the virus originated in animals. This is only an opinion. But, I strongly agree with you.
6. Soya products do not make you gay or turn males into females. Okay, I get it. Soy milk is not the quick fix I hoped for. I will need to pay for expensive surgeries.

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Here is my point. There are lots of people with schizophrenia and autism who think differently. There are also people with non-normative religious beliefs. I always want to give people the benefit of the doubt.

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You are a good guy, Indian Summer.

 

[silva]

Here is something everyone should notice. VeggieViews did not have a lot of active participants prior to merging with this board, although it had lots of members. How many people have been pressured to leave or been banned because for spurious reasons?

I can't think of anyone from VV that had been banned nor pressured to leave! It doesn't seem to me VB had any more active members. Many from VV have left due to so many very disruptive threads from animal farming, and all kinds of "philisophical' discussions on how manage animals in the wild ;

I don't esp care about your views besides on things vegan, which I appreciate. I do have to say your conspiracies do annoy me. Ideas are created by wonder, by having abstract thoughts on the present and how things can come about. The dot tatoos--I've lived with the idea of having things recorded on an implanted chip or a tattooed code. Yes it was described as the sign of satan--666 and all that, cashless society; As an atheist though, the entire idea of religion is nothing more than a fear. and a control, and a confinement
I don't have any personal knowledge of so much of what I believe--and neither do you. We all rely on others experiences and it's our own determination of whether it's real or fabricated to sway our opinion to act certain ways.

Any way, I don't understand why more thought about limiting the discussion on interfering with other species isn't addressed more than flat earth opinions

 

[Blues]

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts. I'll think it over.

I agree that seeing these topics mentioned in the rules might seem weird to new members. But seeing threads go down in flames because of someone arguing that the Earth is flat might seem equally weird to them. A solution might be to rephrase the premises to something a bit more generic sounding.

There might be a way out , but it would cost money . It was in reply to mouse re threads that have a heading that she found upsetting .That was a personal thread block ,but the cost might be prohibited.

 

[Hog]

@ Indian Summer

I will go out on a limb with my opinion.

I hope I would never attempt to change the mind of someone who believes that the earth is flat. These individuals made honest observations that caused them to reject the theory of a spherical earth. Other individuals never considered the theory of a spherical earth in the first place.

The idea of a spherically shaped earth has no pragmatic value for many individuals. The real value of a theory is only in the ability of the theory to allow individuals to predict future events. If the flat earth theory works for an individual, then s/he should use it.

I would imagine that most hogs never bothered to consider if the earth is flat or spherical. Both human constructed theories are probably entirely useless for most hogs.

Similarly, should an alien from a different galaxy ever visit the earth, s/he might completely reject a three dimensional spherical concept of earth as a bunch of tautological nonsense. The alien might have developed a geometry that has no use for a concept of a sphere. At least, the concept of a sphere might be unnecessary for travel between galaxies.

Many animals demonstrate the capacity to easily recognize geometric patterns that look completely alien to humans. I am not saying that animals have a superior sense of geometry. I am saying that the geometry is different.

Likewise, I personally do not have the ability to navigate across vast seas. Still, other animals easily navigate open seas far better than me. Thus, their perception of geometry is different than mine. I will not say superior. Just different.

 

[Andy_T]

The idea of a spherically shaped earth has no pragmatic value for many individuals. The real value of a theory is only in the ability of the theory to allow individuals to predict future events. If the flat earth theory works for an individual, then s/he should use it.

I would say that it does have quite some impact on everybody considering a long journey, and predict whether they will really arrive in Tokyo when starting their flight in Los Angeles (as opposed to falling off the edge of the earth). That would apply to a lot of people.
I guess it was also one of the premises that made the Allied win in WWII possible, so again, many people would have been affected by this historically.
I fail to see many good arguments against these two observations, but then, I am not a flat-earther.

 

[Nekodaiden]

I would say that it does have quite some impact on everybody considering a long journey, and predict whether they will really arrive in Tokyo when starting their flight in Los Angeles (as opposed to falling off the edge of the earth). That would apply to a lot of people.

You assume flat earther's believe in an "edge" to "fall off". I take no definitive position on any flat earth model, however I am aware of the main models, neither of which include a point where one can "fall off" simply by going too far in one direction. Whether that be traveling in a circle (the circular map) or on a square/rectangular map where the end of West is the start of East looking behind forming a loop that has no beginning or end except at any 2 points to be measured, I cannot prove. However, each of those models allows for one to be sure they really will arrive in Tokyo traveling from Los Angeles.

I guess it was also one of the premises that made the Allied win in WWII possible, so again, many people would have been affected by this historically.
I fail to see many good arguments against these two observations, but then, I am not a flat-earther.

Again, the ability to travail or circumnavigate the earth from a single point and following a single direction to arrive again at that single point from the other side would lead one to assume they are traveling in some sort of circle. Flat earthers who have their circular/AE map consider East and West to be spiraling directions, whereas Globe earthers assume them to be straight, but curved over a ball. Each of these two models gives the mind something to conceptualize and relate to. Like a circular race track, for the circular flat earther, or a ball one can move one's finger around, for the globe believer. The 3rd option is neither spiral over a flat map, or curve over a ball, but that they are truely cardinal directions of straight lines in a loop that we simply cannot see - but nevertheless can travail and measure distances between points from within.