Keeping reptiles

Pepsiandjac

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Hiya,I keep tortoises ,so I am a member of a lot of reptile forums,
All of my tortoises are herbivores.
My question is,How ethical is it for someone who is a vegan to breed snakes,and feed them live or frozen rodents or other small animals weekly.
I like snakes,but could never own one because I know I could never feed it what it would need.
But 1 person who claims to be a vegan and keeps posting vegan articles on her website,has 100+ pythons and boa constrictors.
It just seems so wrong for someone that keeps posting vegan articles to be killing 100+ animals a week.
 
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TofuRobot

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Hiya,I keep tortoises ,so I am a member of a lot of reptile forums,
All of my tortoises are herbivores.
My question is,How ethical is it for someone who is a vegan to breed snakes,and feed them live or frozen rodents or other small animals weekly.
I like snakes,but could never own one because I know I could never feed it what it would need.
But 1 person who claims to be a vegan and keeps posting vegan articles on her website,has 100+ pythons and boa constrictors.
It just seems so wrong for someone that keeps posting vegan articles to be killing 100+ animals a week.
It's not ethical (or vegan) to breed snakes, or any other animals, for sale for the pet industry. My son owns a snake, which he acquired at least 5 yrs ago, long before I became vegan and before he ever considered being vegan. Now that he has him, he has an obligation to care for him, IMO. But I doubt he would ever buy another, and if he were to have a dog or cat, I'm almost certain he would adopt/rescue one.
The person you mention should most certainly be called out for breeding snakes in captivity for sale. That is definitely not vegan. He/She is calling themself vegan incorrectly. Perhaps they are confusing vegan with someone who eats a plant-based diet. Big difference.
 
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Pepsiandjac

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Thankyou for replying, that’s exactly what I was thinking,she definitely considers herself a vegan,she even posts PETA announcements against keeping pets,even though she sells wild caught snakes as well,and I’ve seen videos of her letting her cat terrorise baby snakes.
I will definitely be calling her out on this,but her only reaction then is to block people,but hopefully others will call her out too
Thanks Julie
 
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Nekodaiden

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I am unsure what I think about this and also think it deserves more than a binary yes or no answer, so if I may ask:

At what point, and for what reason does it make it unethical?

1) Because it’s a carnivore?
- Are keeping/breeding herbivores more ethical just because they eat plants not other animals?

2) When it was caught?
- There can be good reasons for this, like for instance if it is a venomous snake and it posed a danger to a human

3) When it was fed other animals?
- It’s going to do this anyway in the wild. Feeding a carnivore it’s natural/needed diet doesn’t save any animals, it merely changes the method in which it acquires them

4) When it was kept and sold for profit?
- It might be argued (like with dogs or cats) that it could actually have benefited depending on who bought it and how they treated it as opposed to letting it loose in the wild to fend for itself, possibly get killed by another animal, squished by a motor vehicle, etc.

Convince me.
 
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TofuRobot

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@Nekodaiden - so you don't think that breeding animals and selling them for profit is unethical? (That's what she's saying this person is doing.)
 

TofuRobot

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I didn’t say that. Please read my post more carefully.
I'm sorry - I thought you were responding to the OP who asked "How ethical is it for someone who is a vegan to breed snakes...".
 

Nekodaiden

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I'm sorry - I thought you were responding to the OP
I was.

who asked "How ethical is it for someone who is a vegan to breed snakes...".

The complete sentence is here: “My question is,How ethical is it for someone who is a vegan to breed snakes,and feed them live or frozen rodents or other small animals weekly.


The OP keeps herbivorous turtles and isn’t asking about *them*. Should be obvious that the focus of the question comes from the fact that they know someone who keeps/breeds carnivores (snakes in this case), and the ethics behind feeding them other animals.

So I have asked some questions to give someone an opportunity to convince me it is either ethical or unethical. If you have an argument, please refer to each of the points in my post. I like intellectual honesty :)
 

TofuRobot

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"The complete sentence is here: “My question is,How ethical is it for someone who is a vegan to breed snakes,and feed them live or frozen rodents or other small animals weekly.”"

@Nekodaiden - that might make sense if the first part of her question didn't make everything following it (the part you put in bold) irrelevant.

It's a logical "and" operator. The two must go together, therefore the sum of the two together is not true, since one of them is absolutely not true.

(I like logical discussions.) :)
 
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Vegan Dogs

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It is neither ethical nor vegan to breed and kill animals to feed another animal.

What those animals ate in the wild when free of human ownership is their business. Once human captives it is the humans who take responsibility for who dies and who lives

Pet snakes not native to the country they are kept captives of would not survive in the wild so totally unnatural to breed and kill animals for them there.

If someone has to die....then it is common sense that it is ethical to decide based on numbers of lives involved.

It is clear if vegan then getting such animal as snakes and lizards is a non starter as it would mean killing bred by humans many animals to keep 1 alive.

Cats and dogs have vegan pet foods available to them....i have both vegan fed cat and dogs for example. The small market of reptiles however has not got supplies of vegan nutrients for them to date...and unlikely to....although of course feasible....nutrients are what any animal needs to thrive on so with knowledge of the specific protein etc nutrients it would be possible.

In the case of a "pre vegan days" such snake type pet of course the matter is more difficult to face a decision about.

"In our faces" animals get naturally more attention and therefore given more "importance" disproportionate to other animals "not in our face"

What would i do personally ?

Realising that release of these would mean their deaths and cost of repatriating them to their natural environment a non starter ?

I would kill them.

I would choose...between killing 1000's of defenseless bred and killed by humans rats and mice or baby chicks etc....and killing 1. Either way....i am killing.....so i would base my decision on the numbers of lives involved.

However i have killed animals in pre vegan days.....so know what killing animals means to them.

I just could not justify killing 1000's rather than just 1 is my point.

The problem of just buying dead animals is that it avoids hearing and seeing their fear and pain when being killed by us. It makes it easier to just buy them dead already killed by someone else.

I do add....that if someone dumped on me again as did happen another dog or cat ...if not rehomed in 1 week to a vegan feeding home I would kill the dog or cat. For the same reasons.

We all let dogs and cats die by not adopting those in rescues every day everywhere. We just do not do it "in our faces" is the point. So saving 3000 chickens lives that someone feeding non vegan would be killing to feed just 1 cat or dog is a no brainer for me as a vegan.
distance.jpg
 
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Vegan Dogs

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It is neither ethical nor vegan to breed and kill animals to feed another animal.

What those animals ate in the wild when free of human ownership is their business. Once human captives it is the humans who take responsibility for who dies and who lives

Pet snakes not native to the country they are kept captives of would not survive in the wild so totally unnatural to breed and kill animals for them there.

If someone has to die....then it is common sense that it is ethical to decide based on numbers of lives involved.

It is clear if vegan then getting such animal as snakes and lizards is a non starter as it would mean killing bred by humans many animals to keep 1 alive.

Cats and dogs have vegan pet foods available to them....i have both vegan fed cat and dogs for example. The small market of reptiles however has not got supplies of vegan nutrients for them to date...and unlikely to....although of course feasible....nutrients are what any animal needs to thrive on so with knowledge of the specific protein etc nutrients it would be possible.

In the case of a "pre vegan days" such snake type pet of course the matter is more difficult to face a decision about.

"In our faces" animals get naturally more attention and therefore given more "importance" disproportionate to other animals "not in our face"

What would i do personally ?

Realising that release of these would mean their deaths and cost of repatriating them to their natural environment a non starter ?

I would kill them.

I would choose...between killing 1000's of defenseless bred and killed by humans rats and mice or baby chicks etc....and killing 1. Either way....i am killing.....so i would base my decision on the numbers of lives involved.

However i have killed animals in pre vegan days.....so know what killing animals means to them.

I just could not justify killing 1000's rather than just 1 is my point.

The problem of just buying dead animals is that it avoids hearing and seeing their fear and pain when being killed by us. It makes it easier to just buy them dead already killed by someone else.

I do add....that if someone dumped on me again as did happen another dog or cat ...if not rehomed in 1 week to a vegan feeding home I would kill the dog or cat. For the same reasons.

We all let dogs and cats die by not adopting those in rescues every day everywhere. We just do not do it "in our faces" is the point. So saving 3000 chickens lives that someone feeding non vegan would be killing to feed just 1 cat or dog is a no brainer for me as a vegan.
distance.jpg
ps it is interesting to see a "wow" reaction to the above

What "shocked" ?

Was it killing a dog or cat ? if not rehomed to a vegan feeding home ?

Because if that was the issue that resulted in the "wow" reaction...think about it...

Why ? why would it be more "shocking" to kill 1 dog or cat....rather than 3000 chickens or rats bred and killed by humans ?

I suggest it is the "species" issue...we are so "conditioned" to consider dogs and cats as "more important" than other animals...we do not "flinch" or go "wow" as easily over someone saying they feed their pet dog or cat chickens as if someone says they kill a dog or cat.

It is simply a numbers of lives issue is it not ?

3000 lives versus 1 life. So a no brainer ethically.
 

Nekodaiden

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If someone has to die....then it is common sense that it is ethical to decide based on numbers of lives involved.

It is clear if vegan then getting such animal as snakes and lizards is a non starter as it would mean killing bred by humans many animals to keep 1 alive.

...

What would i do personally ?

Realising that release of these would mean their deaths and cost of repatriating them to their natural environment a non starter ?

I would kill them.

I would choose...between killing 1000's of defenseless bred and killed by humans rats and mice or baby chicks etc....and killing 1. Either way....i am killing.....so i would base my decision on the numbers of lives involved.
It is simply a numbers of lives issue is it not ?

3000 lives versus 1 life. So a no brainer ethically.
If you found yourself in a situation facing 3 hungry lions, or pack of sharks or any other number of predators who might not see another meal unless it's yourself - would you sacrifice yourself for their continued being or would you fight or hope that someone with the means kill them for you ?

If you were in a position to help another human being in that position would you kill the 3 lions or pack of sharks based on this philosophy of
"only sentience and numbers matter"?

Further, if only sentience and numbers matter, are you in favor of the extermination of human beings who will stubbornly never stop paying
for the murder of animals so that they can eat them unnecessarily?
 
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Vegan Dogs

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If you found yourself in a situation facing 3 hungry lions, or pack of sharks or any other number of predators who might not see another meal unless it's yourself - would you sacrifice yourself for their continued being or would you fight or hope that someone with the means kill them for you ?

If you were in a position to help another human being in that position would you kill the 3 lions or pack of sharks based on this philosophy of
"only sentience and numbers matter"?

Further, if only sentience and numbers matter, are you in favor of the extermination of human beings who will stubbornly never stop paying
for the murder of animals so that they can eat them unnecessarily?
self preservation rules...all animals including myself will kill to defend themselves and survive. The issue of "sentience and numbers matter" is clear when faced with a "choice"...i do not consider faced with death myself a "choice" in the normal sense of word "choice"

I would kill a human in self defense rather than let them kill me...same issue....self preservation

Your last suggestion and question is so off reality or "desert island" imaginary scenario it is not really a real situation. No one ever finds themselves on a desert island with only 3 lions and / or a pack of sharks and only 2 humans around. So it is not worth considering.

The "i am on a desert island so must kill to eat" is imaginary....other than Robinson Crusoe in the novel people do not find themselves on desert islands. Self preservation is normal....so in that scenario i or any animals kills to self preserve.

ps no i am not in favour of extermination of the human race! why would i want extermination of my own species ? no animal wishes for that so why should i ?

Humans are sentient beings. Like any other animal.

That we defend our own species when faced by say an attack of wild lions is also normal behaviour. Those scenarios are not what most of us face every day however so theoretical. However if a pack of hungry lions threatened to kill myself or my companion yes i would try to defend myself and my companion.

ppss you choose interestingly the "spectacular" popular species of lions and sharks.

I put to you a less "popular" animal..mosquitos.

I would kill mosquitos in great numbers to prevent them biting me. They do me harm. They can give me diseases that could kill me additionally.

This again is self preservation. I would as soon kill a bear that threatened me as a mosquito in any numbers.


The statement of "only sentience and numbers matter" is in the context of a "choice" of keeping an animal as a "pet" which is not vegan in itself but excused on the idea or grounds that we are at least "saving its life" and feeding that 1 pet other bred and killed by humans 3000 animals. It was clear that is what that statement related to.

That is "choice" of life numbers that do not involve any "desert island" imaginary scenario or "self preservation" natural to any animal need.

I would not "sacrifice" myself to "save the planet" either.
 
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TofuRobot

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A. I'm not about to suggest to my teenage son, who bought a snake when he was 8 years old, that he should kill his him, and I'm not going to go over to his dad's house and do it for him.

B. I tried switching my dog to vegan food last year when he was so sick and emaciated everyone thought he was going to die. He wouldn't eat it. I have tried several times. I'm not going to kill my dog. My dog is a 6-year old GSH mix, who is now on a low dose of prednisone for the rest of his life to treat what was ultimately diagnosed as SLE (systemic lupus something). Sadly, his days are numbered as it is because of that. Will I get another dog when he passes? Probably not, and probably not even to rescue an already-vegan dog. I need a long, serious break from the responsibility, as selfish as that is.

C. Actually, I don't (know a lot of math). Just binary "anding" in the network subnetting type way; and logic (which isn't math really). The rest of math can suck it. ;)
 
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A. I'm not about to suggest to my teenage son, who bought a snake when he was 8 years old, that he should kill his him, and I'm not going to go over to his dad's house and do it for him.

B. I tried switching my dog to vegan food last year when he was so sick and emaciated everyone thought he was going to die. He wouldn't eat it. I have tried several times. I'm not going to kill my dog. My dog is a 6-year old GSH mix, who is now on a low dose of prednisone for the rest of his life to treat what was ultimately diagnosed as SLE (systemic lupus something). Sadly, his days are numbered as it is because of that. Will I get another dog when he passes? Probably not, and probably not even to rescue an already-vegan dog. I need a long, serious break from the responsibility, as selfish as that is.

C. Actually, I don't (know a lot of math). Just binary "anding" in the network subnetting type way; and logic (which isn't math really). The rest of math can suck it. ;)
i totally get the situation.

Especially the "no more pets" bit. as the adult you have all the responsibility for what are time consuming dependants for life on you

it is unfortunate to have to kill animals to feed this captive daft snake pet....of all the animals to have as a "pet" that really is a daft one i am sure you will agree. It is such an unnatural prisoner boring life for the animal. aweful.

dogs thrive as do cats on the vegan pet foods. i seriously do not wish for more "pets" when these pass on they are just a massive bind.
 

TofuRobot

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"Probably not, and probably not even to rescue an already-vegan dog. I need a long, serious break from the responsibility, as selfish as that is. "

That is not selfish. It is mature.
Honestly, it's really difficult. I *love* dogs. And - while I do know this is a selfish reason to have a dog - I feel safer, living alone as a single woman, with one. And I feel safer walking with one. What I might consider doing is fostering, and/or being a dog-walker. But for a little while, at least, I simply need to be free of the responsibility - both financial and time. Not being able to be away from home for longer than 8 hours or so without having to hire someone to walk or otherwise take care of another living creature is super restricting. But last year the vet bills almost killed me. I spent over $3K that I only happened to have because of a worker's comp settlement and a GoFundMe having him tested just to end up with his diagnosis. I wasn't even working at the time. I am super grateful that his meds aren't expensive. I'm not sure what I'd do if they were. And honestly, I was selfish in that I didn't consider my financial situation at the time when I adopted him. The truth - I was in an abusive relationship when I adopted him. I used to have to get out of the house at night to go for a walk just to get away, and I didn't feel safe where we were living walking alone at night. ...I honestly believe that people who work full time shouldn't own dogs unless there's someone home to take care of them or they can afford to pay someone to walk them in the middle of the day ever day, and I don't make enough to do that, so I feel terrible leaving him alone. But I don't have a choice, and only having a 2 year degree an entry-level certification, I'm very grateful to be working (and out of the restaurant industry). Fortunately my son is with me every other week, so that helps. On the other hand, he was literally dumped in the desert at about 6 mos of age, so I'm happy to have been able to rescue him, but if I'm being honest, he probably have been better off in another household.

I haven't always made the best decisions in my life (not even remotely), but I'm trying to do better going forward.
 
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