Keeping Carniverous Animals!

Jaydoesitgood

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Im not talking about animals that have a market with food out there for them, Im talking about reptiles baby! And Im coming at this as someone who is vegan, has been vegan for quite a while, and also owns two snakes and a gecko (insectivore) all captive bred.
I already know that dogs can, if done with care and supervision of a vet, go on a vegan or at very least vegetarian diet and thrive. However my scaly friends will never be able to eat a vegetable. Its simply a part of their biology. Of course, I don't think anyone here thinks snakes and lizards are evil for being carnivores the same way we don't think eagles or lions are evil for being carnivores, but my question is: Is it ethical for a vegan person to own these animals while having to buy them meat to consume?

I recently came across some articles arguing against keeping reptiles as pets for this exact reason and I wanted to see what others ideas on this topic were.
Cheers!
 
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Lou

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I'm thinking this falls into my "before I was vegan" category.

example: I bought those boots before I was vegan

I'm not sure but the Before I Was Vegan Category might even have a special section for pets.
 

StrangeOtter

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I made my final year project about red sided garter snake. First, I read everything that I could find about the wild ones, and the information was facinating, I grew to respect them deeply.
Then, I found out about the recommendations for keeping them in captivity. I remember being very confused, because I read something like they can be kept in a fairly small (29 gallon) aquarium/terrarium. I felt like this was only to convenience the humans, who kept them, but since I wasn't very educated about animal ethics just yet, I didn't have the ability to vebalize my feelings.
I thought that "I can't write this, this must be a mistake. Am I crazy or is everyone else?"

You can notice the same inconsistency in keeping foxes. The law of their cages is completely different in fur industry, than when they are kept in a zoo setting. "The law says that it's okay, so it is, right?"
Most illogical, after all it's the same species, so how come the law can be so different when it comes to fur foxes?
To convenience the humans, of course...

So over all, I think that keeping snakes is very non-vegan, from the begin with...
Our activist group arranged a lecture by Elisa Aaltola, she is a philosopher, specialiced in empathy and animal philosophy moral psychology and environmental philosophy. I recommend her books, she is awesome.
During the lecture, she talked about keeping carnivorous pets, and she said that keeping them is problematic..
The animal that is killed for the carnivorous animal, has an interest to live. But also, the carnivorous animal has an interest to live, and can't if is given the wrong kind of diet.
As vegans, we should keep only vegan pets.

I'm sorry if I come off as judgemental. This topic makes me upset.


Some years ago, I adopted a cat, she is elder and diabetic, so I'm going to take care of her 'till one of us dies. And no, she can not be vegan. I think that feeding her vegan diet would be dangerous to her health. Because of her diabetes, she gets nauseous if I feed her the wrong kind of diet, and she also gets urinary tract problems easily. She requires alot of animal based protein and minimum amouts of carbs, there is no denying that.
After her, I'm not taking any cats, even though I absolutely love cats, want to be around them, and would like to adopt a cat (or couple). Maybe I'll volunteer in a animal shelter in the future... And I might get a rescue dog, in the distant future, as well, since dogs usually can be fed vegan diet without complications, like you mentioned.

Also... I do not recommend you to give your reptiles to another home, either. I think that you are capable of giving them a good home, since you are interested of animal rights. In some other home, they could get inadvertently killed, since reptiles are so sensitive creatures and also callenging to be kept as pets.
 
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Vegan Dogs

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It is clear if vegan then getting such animal as snakes and lizards is a non starter as it would mean killing bred by humans many animals to keep 1 alive.

Cats and dogs have vegan pet foods available to them....i have both vegan fed cat and dogs for example. The small market of reptiles however has not got supplies of vegan nutrients for them to date...and unlikely to....although of course feasible....nutrients are what any animal needs to thrive on so with knowledge of the specific protein etc nutrients it would be possible.

In the case of a "pre vegan days" such snake type pet of course the matter is more difficult to face a decision about.

"In our faces" animals get naturally more attention and therefore given more "importance" disproportionate to other animals "not in our face"

What would i do personally ?

Realising that release of these would mean their deaths and cost of repatriating them to their natural environment a non starter ?

I would kill them.

I would choose...between killing 1000's of defenseless bred and killed by humans rats and mice or baby chicks etc....and killing 1. Either way....i am killing.....so i would base my decision on the numbers of lives involved.

However i have killed animals in pre vegan days.....so know what killing animals means to them.

I just could not justify killing 1000's rather than just 1 is my point.

The problem of just buying dead animals is that it avoids hearing and seeing their fear and pain when being killed by us. It makes it easier to just buy them dead already killed by someone else.

I do add....that if someone dumped on me again as did happen another dog or cat ...if not rehomed in 1 week to a vegan feeding home I would kill the dog or cat. For the same reasons.

We all let dogs and cats die by not adopting those in rescues every day everywhere. We just do not do it "in our faces" is the point. So saving 3000 chickens lives that someone feeding non vegan would be killing to feed just 1 cat or dog is a no brainer for me as a vegan.
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Vegan Dogs

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It is clear if vegan then getting such animal as snakes and lizards is a non starter as it would mean killing bred by humans many animals to keep 1 alive.

Cats and dogs have vegan pet foods available to them....i have both vegan fed cat and dogs for example. The small market of reptiles however has not got supplies of vegan nutrients for them to date...and unlikely to....although of course feasible....nutrients are what any animal needs to thrive on so with knowledge of the specific protein etc nutrients it would be possible.

In the case of a "pre vegan days" such snake type pet of course the matter is more difficult to face a decision about.

"In our faces" animals get naturally more attention and therefore given more "importance" disproportionate to other animals "not in our face"

What would i do personally ?

Realising that release of these would mean their deaths and cost of repatriating them to their natural environment a non starter ?

I would kill them.

I would choose...between killing 1000's of defenseless bred and killed by humans rats and mice or baby chicks etc....and killing 1. Either way....i am killing.....so i would base my decision on the numbers of lives involved.

However i have killed animals in pre vegan days.....so know what killing animals means to them.

I just could not justify killing 1000's rather than just 1 is my point.

The problem of just buying dead animals is that it avoids hearing and seeing their fear and pain when being killed by us. It makes it easier to just buy them dead already killed by someone else.

I do add....that if someone dumped on me again as did happen another dog or cat ...if not rehomed in 1 week to a vegan feeding home I would kill the dog or cat. For the same reasons.

We all let dogs and cats die by not adopting those in rescues every day everywhere. We just do not do it "in our faces" is the point. So saving 3000 chickens lives that someone feeding non vegan would be killing to feed just 1 cat or dog is a no brainer for me as a vegan.
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ps....i suggest not ranting back at me. I just gave my opinion .... people do as they please.

A question was asked...i replied.

The question involves killing animals. Not vegan obviously.

So i would and do choose based on the numbers killed involved

Either way....killing animals is involved and i see no justification for saying a "pet" animal has any more rights to life than a non pet farm animal. It is illogical to suggest so. We have no more responsibility to a "pet" than a "farm" animal's life. Not when we are the ones causing their deaths.
 

Jaydoesitgood

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ps....i suggest not ranting back at me. I just gave my opinion .... people do as they please.

A question was asked...i replied.

The question involves killing animals. Not vegan obviously.

So i would and do choose based on the numbers killed involved

Either way....killing animals is involved and i see no justification for saying a "pet" animal has any more rights to life than a non pet farm animal. It is illogical to suggest so. We have no more responsibility to a "pet" than a "farm" animal's life. Not when we are the ones causing their deaths.
I mean that is a very uh...extreme opinion. I know I didnt reply to the original comment, but Lou is correct that these were rescues from before I was vegan or even vegetarian. They were failed breeders from a tub breeding system a la Brian Barczyk (Patron saint of everything wrong with the reptile industry) and as someone who rescued them from being frozen to death in a freezer, I see myself as having a responsibility to their well-being. While I definitely see my advocacy going in a VERY different way now that Im vegan, I dont think killing every single carnivorous animal in captivity is the correct responce. Its removing the demand and breeding programs for them and then caring for the ones still in captivity. The alternative is just a kind of horrific culling on top of the endless ones that already take place in the animal agriculture field.
 

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I mean that is a very uh...extreme opinion. I know I didnt reply to the original comment, but Lou is correct that these were rescues from before I was vegan or even vegetarian. They were failed breeders from a tub breeding system a la Brian Barczyk (Patron saint of everything wrong with the reptile industry) and as someone who rescued them from being frozen to death in a freezer, I see myself as having a responsibility to their well-being. While I definitely see my advocacy going in a VERY different way now that Im vegan, I dont think killing every single carnivorous animal in captivity is the correct responce. Its removing the demand and breeding programs for them and then caring for the ones still in captivity. The alternative is just a kind of horrific culling on top of the endless ones that already take place in the animal agriculture field.
all that i pointed out which the owner of the reptiles agreed....was it causes killing of defenseless dependent on us animals

Our "responsibility" is not just for what we "own" ourselves...but animals. To think the ones we own have more right to life than other animals is not ethical. "animals are not ours to use" is veganism.

there is no difference in the animals we kill or the ones we keep as pets...they are poor animals prisoners of ours who are defenseless and we kill them

i said it is understandable a kid's pets are difficult to kill...but it involves many killings just out of sight
 
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Vanille

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Dogs can be vegan yeah, but cats can't, yeah they have vegan food available but I read enough horror stories about cats getting blind and ****... I don't think having pets is necessarily animal exploitation depending on where you got the pet and wether that animal would survive in the wild. Pets are our friends/children, not our slaves and many pets care for their humans as well... If you have a pet who needs to eat meat in order to stay alive, it would be unvegan to not help your little friend survive... If you released that animal in the wild, they'll still hunt on animals... Tho as for lizards... Those belong in the wild and are meant to eat insects. Does that mean you should release them? If you live in Africa maybe but you should take care of them now you already have them.
 
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Dogs can be vegan yeah, but cats can't, yeah they have vegan food available but I read enough horror stories about cats getting blind and ****... I don't think having pets is necessarily animal exploitation depending on where you got the pet and wether that animal would survive in the wild. Pets are our friends/children, not our slaves and many pets care for their humans as well... If you have a pet who needs to eat meat in order to stay alive, it would be unvegan to not help your little friend survive... If you released that animal in the wild, they'll still hunt on animals... Tho as for lizards... Those belong in the wild and are meant to eat insects. Does that mean you should release them? If you live in Africa maybe but you should take care of them now you already have them.
1. have you not read the fact that vegan cat foods exist with plenty healthy vegan fed cat examples provided in this group ? 20 year old ones even ?
2. Following the fact that evidence and links supporting experts in animal nutritiion already provided in this group...i and no one can accept vague unsubstantiated claims as you make about cats going blind and dying on vegan diets. I will go so far as to say this is total rubbish. I have read and run vegan cat groups and i have never read such mythical stories. Therefore pls do not make such wild claims without providing evidence and references.
3. it is NOT VEGAN to kill 1000 NOT FRIENDS ? FARM ANIMALS to feed 1 "friend" pet one.
The point is....animals' lives are "not ours to take" so ? it is simply not vegan for humans to kill for any animal.
To like to pretend we humans are responsible for our "pets" but not "farm animals" is pure delusional. Either animals owned by humans are our responsibility...or they are not. To say that farm animals are not our responsibility would mean we might as well eat them ourselves based on that logic. Their lives..matter.
 

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1. have you not read the fact that vegan cat foods exist with plenty healthy vegan fed cat examples provided in this group ? 20 year old ones even ?
2. Following the fact that evidence and links supporting experts in animal nutritiion already provided in this group...i and no one can accept vague unsubstantiated claims as you make about cats going blind and dying on vegan diets. I will go so far as to say this is total rubbish. I have read and run vegan cat groups and i have never read such mythical stories. Therefore pls do not make such wild claims without providing evidence and references.
3. it is NOT VEGAN to kill 1000 NOT FRIENDS ? FARM ANIMALS to feed 1 "friend" pet one.
The point is....animals' lives are "not ours to take" so ? it is simply not vegan for humans to kill for any animal.
To like to pretend we humans are responsible for our "pets" but not "farm animals" is pure delusional. Either animals owned by humans are our responsibility...or they are not. To say that farm animals are not our responsibility would mean we might as well eat them ourselves based on that logic. Their lives..matter.
No, we are omnivores, we can stay healthy without meat but some animals can't. Also, dogs aren't vegan to begin with when ALL dogs in the world are bred by humans and it's our fault they became omnivores as well. Circle of life, carnivores eat other animals, it'll always be like that wether we adopt a cat and buy food for him, or release him in the wild where he'll still kill other animals. Animals will always die, even if all humans went vegan, cause carnivores exist and they exist so that herbivores won't overpopulate. We aren't part of the circle of life, we have a choice, and many choose to hurt and kill animals for their own pleasure which is unessecary. We breeded animals to the point they are no longer healthy, also there are waaaay too many farm animals and that's not good for the environment (so should they die? No, just stop raping them, eventually the old ones will die anyway, less babies will be born, there ya go) as long as carnivores exist, animals will die. And we can't force carnivores to go vegan, they won't understand it and get sick and die... No, vegan cat food ain't healthy, if your cat happens to be healthy, great, but most aren't and vets really don't recommend it... No cat (domestic, but also bigger cats) naturally eats veggies, never have and won't anytime soon unless we continue breeding them (risking health complications) in the way we want them to be... I hate breeding in general, tho for dogs and cats it's too late... I don't think it's unvegan to save one from a shelter or from someone in your circle who has a nest... But if you get a cat, accept he's a carnivore, he'll get sick without meat... You aren't less of a vegan if you keep your little friend healthy, as he has no choice, tho you do. It'd be ideal if all humans went vegan and we made pet food from animals who are dead already (farm animal dies from age or injury, we feed him to our cats, like that, but I doubt that'll be healthy either)

 

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No, we are omnivores, we can stay healthy without meat but some animals can't. Also, dogs aren't vegan to begin with when ALL dogs in the world are bred by humans and it's our fault they became omnivores as well. Circle of life, carnivores eat other animals, it'll always be like that wether we adopt a cat and buy food for him, or release him in the wild where he'll still kill other animals. Animals will always die, even if all humans went vegan, cause carnivores exist and they exist so that herbivores won't overpopulate. We aren't part of the circle of life, we have a choice, and many choose to hurt and kill animals for their own pleasure which is unessecary. We breeded animals to the point they are no longer healthy, also there are waaaay too many farm animals and that's not good for the environment (so should they die? No, just stop raping them, eventually the old ones will die anyway, less babies will be born, there ya go) as long as carnivores exist, animals will die. And we can't force carnivores to go vegan, they won't understand it and get sick and die... No, vegan cat food ain't healthy, if your cat happens to be healthy, great, but most aren't and vets really don't recommend it... No cat (domestic, but also bigger cats) naturally eats veggies, never have and won't anytime soon unless we continue breeding them (risking health complications) in the way we want them to be... I hate breeding in general, tho for dogs and cats it's too late... I don't think it's unvegan to save one from a shelter or from someone in your circle who has a nest... But if you get a cat, accept he's a carnivore, he'll get sick without meat... You aren't less of a vegan if you keep your little friend healthy, as he has no choice, tho you do. It'd be ideal if all humans went vegan and we made pet food from animals who are dead already (farm animal dies from age or injury, we feed him to our cats, like that, but I doubt that'll be healthy either)


I have provided many times in this easily findable... very detailed website and qualifications of Dr Andrew Knight etc of www.vegepets.com with plenty scientific references to cat and dog vegan diets.

I have provided many times the FACT that 20 YEAR OLD HEALTHY VEGAN CATS EXIST so all claims that this is not possible are rubbish. disproven by the fact thousands of vegan long lived cats exist have existed since the pet foods have legally been sold now for over 35 years.

It is NOT vegan to breed and kill animals to feed other animals. There is absolutely no excuse for doing that to the victims no ethical RIGHT of a human to use them and kill them. "animals are not ours to use" = simple clear vegan principle. So as animals "are not ours" we cannot kill and use them. If vegan.

If you think putting food in a dish that an animal thrives on is "forcing" something well i suggest you mention what about the "forcing animals to die by killing them" is ? well ? why did you forget to mention that forcing ? or is that "VEGAN" to you ? not to me ...i am vegan. my cat is fed vegan as are my dogs and i as a vegan do not "FORCE ANIMALS TO DIE" that are not mine to use their lives are theirs not mine...IF vegan.

end of matter. TO FORCE ANIMALS TO DIE is not vegan...that is what you are saying I should do. Get stuffed non vegan is my reply...my turkeys will not die to feed my healthy vegan fed cat and dogs. Their lives...are not mine to take.

you believe your fantasies as you please...but no one who kills bred by humans animals is vegan. end of. I will not kill my turkeys or any other turkeys. That is not being vegan but an animal murderer...which is what any one is who feeds their pet cats turkeys chickens etc bred and killed by humans. Murderers. Not vegans. Ask the victims...the turkeys.turkey stroke xmas.jpg
 
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Vegan Dogs

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ps do not continue to reply i suggest. i am tired of repeating myself and due to being myself vegan with healthy vegan fed cat and dogs will not tolerate taking instructions to kill animals to feed my healthy vegan fed cat and dogs animals....as they are not mine to use as a vegan. That is the whole point of veganism...accepting that animals are not ours to use. not dead or alive. they were bred and killed by humans so unethical abuse.

the matter is over.

i am vegan. my cat and dogs are fed vegan. the turkeys chickens etc bodies and lives are not needed to feed my superflous to the ecosystem anyway pet dogs and cats. the least i can do is feed them vegan or destroy them to save the lives of wild life and farm animals that otherwise die in greater numbers than 1 pet cat or dog if they are fed and helped to do so by humans that own them unaturally also anyway.

There is nothing natural about a human owning animals. If not feeding them vegan...even less point, as it involves animals bred by humans deaths. Total waste of time. Totally not vegan.

As i said. End of matter i am fed up with repeating myself i have provided the links evidence in plenty of 20 year old healthy vegan fed cats no need to keep harping on about murdering animals to feed some preferred toy pet ones to me. I particularly object to SOME animals only the PET ones being called FRIENDS but not the ugly horrible less useful as toy pet turkeys and other farm animals. It disgusts me to see people show such preferences and fail to call ugly farm animals their friends. it is pathetic in fact.

ps already provided elsewhere in this group on the subject of vegan pet foods...Celine and Poppy healthy 20 year old vegan fed cats. Celine the blackie in her 21st year currently. End of any need for proof. These are not supernatural beings simply cats. Fed vegan. Indoor cats. Like many others. The vegan cat foods are complete, species appropriate nutrition, sold since over 35 years never a recall never any scandals. End of facts and truths easily verifiable. Never have any vegan cat foods been recalled..sold for over 35 years.

celine vegan cats.jpg
 
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Nekodaiden

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Im not talking about animals that have a market with food out there for them, Im talking about reptiles baby! And Im coming at this as someone who is vegan, has been vegan for quite a while, and also owns two snakes and a gecko (insectivore) all captive bred.
I already know that dogs can, if done with care and supervision of a vet, go on a vegan or at very least vegetarian diet and thrive. However my scaly friends will never be able to eat a vegetable. Its simply a part of their biology. Of course, I don't think anyone here thinks snakes and lizards are evil for being carnivores the same way we don't think eagles or lions are evil for being carnivores, but my question is: Is it ethical for a vegan person to own these animals while having to buy them meat to consume?

I recently came across some articles arguing against keeping reptiles as pets for this exact reason and I wanted to see what others ideas on this topic were.
Cheers!
Is it ethical to keep captive bred carnivorous animals (because) of the assumption they would not survive in the wild on their own? If the assumption is true, yes. If false, probably not. The animal should choose your company, not be forced into it.

Is it ethical to feed other animals to such? It would be unethical not to.

Speaking generally (so not to the OP necessarily) : Vegans who think we should convert carnivores (or otherwise kill those that cannot be converted) not only live in a fantasy world, but make veganism look like a kooky religion where the death of any sentient being for any reason (even necessity for carnivorous animals) is evil. I personally like the idea of the lamb and the lion lying together and eating hay - it sounds nice - but I also realize it doesn't match our present reality. Try feeding a lion hay and see how long it survives on that.
 
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Is it ethical to keep captive bred carnivorous animals (because) of the assumption they would not survive in the wild on their own? If the assumption is true, yes. If false, probably not. The animal should choose your company, not be forced into it.

Is it ethical to feed other animals to such? It would be unethical not to.

Speaking generally (so not to the OP necessarily) : Vegans who think we should convert carnivores (or otherwise kill those that cannot be converted) not only live in a fantasy world, but make veganism look like a kooky religion where the death of any sentient being for any reason (even necessity for carnivorous animals) is evil. I personally like the idea of the lamb and the lion lying together and eating hay - it sounds nice - but I also realize it doesn't match our present reality. Try feeding a lion hay and see how long it survives on that.

1. what is ethical about forcing an animal bred by humans to die ? nothing

since that is what is involved...it is not ethical or vegan...to breed and kill captives of humans animals.

there is no moral ethical justification for keeping 1 animal alive unnaturally fed by a human ...by breeding forced to die by humans other animals


2. To talk of what lions eat in the wild is totally irrelevant. a captive pet animal of a human should therefore be set loose and feed itself like a lion does if anyone tries using that argument.

the natural end of feral pet cats would be 80% deaths if not artificially kept alive by humans who keep them as pets

there is nothing natural about a lion being kept and fed by a human

not a pet cat

let pet cats die out is natural.

stop the silly arguments comparing wild animals to artificially kept alive pet ones is natural and ethical

the rabbits bred and killed by humans to feed a preferred pet cat is pure speciesism not respect of nature which this false lion argument is based on.

go keep a pet lion instead of letting them die as they do of starvation disease etc if really caring about wild life....peope do not do that they want to own cuddly pet toy cats instead and use silly lion arguements ignoring those pet cats would be dead of starvation or disease or road splats if left wild like wild lions. they are pests in effect not part of any ecosystem so talking about lions ad pet cats is a total stupidity.

3. Nutrients are what any animal needs to thrive on. There are plenty thriving healthy vegan fed cats around. who have no idea or interest in what is out of a human made metal tin or packet of pet food that is put in plates by humans for them to eat. so there is no excuse to abuse kill bred by humans animals to feed cuddly toy pet animals. none at all.

4. No pet animal chooses to have their genitals cut off...be vaccinated....be fed by a hairless ape human. their entire lives as pet or farm animals are forced on them. It is not ethical to force a captive bred by humans animal to die by humans. end of ethics about who is forced to live and die against their will...the chickens get no choice of who owns them who feed them and who kills them. pure pet speciesm makes people ignore this forcing on them this lack of choice of theirs. to the right to life itself. for an unnatural kept alive and heatlhy by humans preferred pet species animal. that is not natural not part of any ecosystem just a toy of humans.
 
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