Is democracy a mistake in some countries?

Second Summer

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Do you agree that democracy requires a certain level of education or skills/knowledge in order to work? If so, is it not better for some countries at this point in time to have an authoritarian, yet stable government that provides the conditions necessary for positive development?

Surely actual democracy is impossible in countries such as Afghanistan with a literacy rate of around 28%?
 
I don't think that literacy is necessarily a good yardstick for intelligence, common sense, reasoning ability, or even knowledge of local problems and possible solutions. God knows that here in the U.S., for example, we have all kinds of information available at our fingertips and yet so many people can't sort out the wheat from the chaff, or aren't interested in doing so or in being informed, to an extent that continues to be absolutely mind boggling to me.

I think that whether democacy can work in a country at any given time depends on more amorphous criteria, such as cultural and societal trends and mores. And that is ultimately why countries have to come to democracy (if at all) at their own rates and in their own ways.
 
I think a democratic would be more likely to want the literacy rate to increase, so in the long run, it would be better for the people.
I think that would be a bit of a chicken and egg conondrum. In a place like Afghanistan with no tradition for democracy, I doubt democratic elections would necessarily bring to power someone who cares about democratic values and improving literacy.

I don't think that literacy is necessarily a good yardstick for intelligence, common sense, reasoning ability, or even knowledge of local problems and possible solutions. God knows that here in the U.S., for example, we have all kinds of information available at our fingertips and yet so many people can't sort out the wheat from the chaff, or aren't interested in doing so or in being informed, to an extent that continues to be absolutely mind boggling to me.
I somehow suspect you guys would be even worse off if the literacy rate was similar to that of Afghanistan. But yes, the way I see it, the literacy rate is just one factor among several that need to be at a certain level for democracy to work.

I think that whether democacy can work in a country at any given time depends on more amorphous criteria, such as cultural and societal trends and mores. And that is ultimately why countries have to come to democracy (if at all) at their own rates and in their own ways.
Yes, I guess this is what I was getting at. Democracy can't be rushed. The entire society needs to develop. Ultimately, it comes down to beliefs. If the population doesn't believe in democracy, then it won't work.
 
Even educated countries make big mistakes. If I got to choose, I'd take my chances with a King and Queen over Democracy.

I somehow suspect you guys would be even worse off if the literacy rate was similar to that of Afghanistan.
The US government supports factory farms. It doesn't get worse than that.
 
I think that would be a bit of a chicken and egg conondrum. In a place like Afghanistan with no tradition for democracy, I doubt democratic elections would necessarily bring to power someone who cares about democratic values and improving literacy.


I somehow suspect you guys would be even worse off if the literacy rate was similar to that of Afghanistan. But yes, the way I see it, the literacy rate is just one factor among several that need to be at a certain level for democracy to work.


Yes, I guess this is what I was getting at. Democracy can't be rushed. The entire society needs to develop. Ultimately, it comes down to beliefs. If the population doesn't believe in democracy, then it won't work.
I agree with all of this.
 
I think when people want democracy bad enough they're willing to violently overthrow those trying to control them, it is by default time to make the switch :)

I find the relevance or irrelevance of literacy to be an interesting topic. I recognize that literacy has very little to do with intelligence, but it's still an eye opening experience to live within cultures with very low literacy rates.

The mother of my ex-wife (who grew up in the Chinese countryside) could not read or write, but was a moderately successful businesswoman by countryside standards. She managed to make about $30,000 per year in a place where the average was less than $1,000 per year. She was very street smart, obviously of high intelligence, and very dependent on relationship based leverage to make her sales due to the fact that she couldn't read a contract or understand the details of how business law works. Even if she did, the police in the area didn't exactly place a high priority on enforcing such things unless there was something in it for them and, incidentally, an uncle of hers was the police chief. Within her own world, she did well. She had very little understanding of how things worked outside of that world, even within her own country. Once we had to take one of my ex-wife's sisters to a hospital in Shanghai, about three hours away, for more advanced treatment than was available in the countryside. Her parents couldn't even communicate with the doctors, and either my ex-wife or I had to help with the translation. In countries with extremely low literacy rates (pre Mao Ze Dong China), spoken dialects drift apart rapidly. My ex-wife and even the Shanghai doctor belonged to a different, more educated era. They spoke standard Mandarin Chinese as well as their local dialects. The older generation was by default isolated within their own communities. Mao Ze Dong, as controversial as he might have been, took one very critical step in his attempt to unify China. He took the Beijing dialect and made that the national language, and then eventually made the learning of that language, both spoken and written, mandatory. Prior to this, states were connected via educated government officials, and the idea of a democratic form of government where all but a few had the power to make decisions for the majority would have been laughable. Now that this older generation is fading and the literate, not smarter but more educated younger generation is taking its place, the desire for Democracy has started to grow rapidly. The government will, little by little, have to make concessions and compromises if it wants to avoid civil war.

My other experience was in Afghanistan. I had contact with Taliban prisoners who were, for the most part, completely illiterate. At first I couldn't help but find it almost amusing how they would make what they thought were clever quotes from the Koran in order to justify their actions, not realizing that their quotes weren't even in the Koran. Their perspective of their religion was based largely on word of mouth and their own isolated culture. And to be fair, this phenomenon is far from being restricted to radical Muslims. People who lack the ability to read and write are at a severe disadvantage in regards to the ability to accurately pass on information (think of the game "Telephone"), yet for some reason still hold just as strongly to their beliefs as some other group that might have heard the information just a little differently. To draw a parallel, consider ongoing debates over the meaning and intent of the U.S. Constitute, a document from which we all at least have the advantage of starting with the same wording. We can't even settle on the meaning and intent of the term "right to bear arms," for example. Now imagine for a second that there is no written constitution and that we're just going by word of mouth, and that we've all heard different versions of that constitution, AND that we're interpreting those different versions differently. Let's also imagine that an issue came up that needed to be voted on that related to these debated rights, but again we couldn't read and interpret that issue with our own eyes, and instead had to rely on the words of someone who more than likely has an agenda. We can still make our way to the poll and vote, but is it really Democracy if no one really has any idea what they're voting about and no understanding of the government they fall under?

I don't know what my solution is though. I didn't really start with the intent of making an important point, I just started typing stuff.

The tactical advantages of spreading one's own form of government is only partly due to a desire to see everyone "free." There isn't a country in this world that doesn't have some kind of agenda, and whether that agenda is good or not, it's easier to see it through when there are other countries who see things the way you do. Spreading Democracy is just another possible move in a big game of chess.
 
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And if you believe in genetic mutation as the driving force behind evolution, then the egg came first, having been laid by a bird that was not quite chicken but really, really close. If you are a creationist, then I suppose the chicken probably came first. Otherwise who'd sit on the egg?
 
I think that even in a *literate* society (and here I'm using the U.S. as an example, since it's the one in which I've spent my life), very few people have actually read the source material for their beliefs, such as the Constitution or the Bible. They do rely on word of mouth, i.e., their pastors, people advocating certain positions, etc., and those people pick and choose or often have read very limited provisions of the source materials. It's quite possible to graduate from law school without ever reading the U.S. Constitution, for example.

I think that having information that extends beyond one's village is more a function of media (radio and TV) than actual literacy for most people. Of course, countries with low literacy rates are also generally impoverished enough that such media is not available to most, and such media as exists is often limited/tightly controlled.

I mean, when close to a third of Americans can't name the VP, how much does that say for literacy? Despite the 24/7 media blasting everywhere, easy access to the internet and many other sources of information, we remain highly ill informed and selectively informed. Does illiteracy make the problem worse? Undoubtedly, but I continue to posit that the availability of spoken information through non-written media probably plays a more important role. For example, most of the information lay people in the U.S. have about legal processes and legal rights is based on TV shows and movies, and is thus a function of societal affluence rather than literacy as such.
 
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Surely actual democracy is impossible in countries such as Afghanistan with a literacy rate of around 28%?

What was the literacy rates of historic groups that had democracy (or somewhat democratic) processes?

Iceland's Althing started around the 10th century, and has overtones of democracy. Can't imagine that many Icelandic people where literate at that time.
 
I think that even in a *literate* society (and here I'm using the U.S. as an example, since it's the one in which I've spent my life), very few people have actually read the source material for their beliefs, such as the Constitution or the Bible.

Obligatory:

According to Mortensen—an otherwise mild-mannered husband, father, and small-business owner—the most serious threat to his fanciful version of the 222-year-old Constitution is the attempt by far-left "traitors" to strip it of its religious foundation.

"Right there in the preamble, the authors make their priorities clear: 'one nation under God,'" said Mortensen, attributing to the Constitution a line from the Pledge of Allegiance, which itself did not include any reference to a deity until 1954. "Well, there's a reason they put that right at the top."


From The Onion.
 
What sort of things do you think one needs to be educated about, know about, and/or be skilled in for democracy to work? And what does it mean for a system of government to work?

I think Democracy is always preferable to dictatorships.
 
I'm not sure which comment I made that you're referring to, but the world's problems have gotten worse as the world has gotten more Democratic. Democracy has done nothing to solve the world's problems. I'd prefer someone like Queen Elizabeth 100 times before I'd take any of the recent American Presidents.
 
I'm not sure which comment I made that you're referring to, but the world's problems have gotten worse as the world has gotten more Democratic. Democracy has done nothing to solve the world's problems. I'd prefer someone like Queen Elizabeth 100 times before I'd take any of the recent American Presidents.

I guess you don't realize that Queen Elizabeth is a titular head of state with no real powers. The British monarchy provides a nice tourist show, for which they are paid handsomely, but that's it.

And I was referring to both parts of your comment.

But I'm surprised at your support for the Queen - I had been under the impression that you were an opponent of the New World Order, not a supporter.
 
I guess you don't realize that Queen Elizabeth is a titular head of state with no real powers. The British monarchy provides a nice tourist show, for which they are paid handsomely, but that's it.

Technically, she still has real powers. Most of the royal perogative (a fancy way of saying "powers the monarch, in theory, has") is made by other members of government in the monarch's name. In theory, she can still use these powers unilaterally. In practice, the moment she unilaterally uses most of them she'll probably lose 'em.

There's still a few powers the Queen has left that she can use without serious objection, but what those powers are only interests to UK political geeks. ;)

Other countries, such as Sweden, are more or less very up-front about their monarch being a figurehead only. But the UK's government has been cobbled together for almost a thousand years, and, by golly, the Brits aren't really for wholesale scrapping and replacement of their government. The result is the current bizarre system, which works mostly because what didn't work has been replaced or worked around.

ETA: Dangit, I was looking for a list of constitutional monarchies storted by power the monarch retained, and I forgot the most obvious example of a powerless constitutional monarch - the Emperor of Japan, who has been granted no powers since the end of WWII.
 
I guess you don't realize that Queen Elizabeth is a titular head of state with no real powers. The British monarchy provides a nice tourist show, for which they are paid handsomely, but that's it.

And I was referring to both parts of your comment.

But I'm surprised at your support for the Queen - I had been under the impression that you were an opponent of the New World Order, not a supporter.
I was referring to Queen Elizabeth 1 who ruled England centuries ago. Apparently you don't know there's more than one Queen Elizabeth.
 
What was the literacy rates of historic groups that had democracy (or somewhat democratic) processes?

Iceland's Althing started around the 10th century, and has overtones of democracy. Can't imagine that many Icelandic people where literate at that time.
I dunno about literacy rates in historic democracy-minded societies. The world is different today, regardless of what backwards country you live in. As an informed citizen you need to know about the state of affairs on a global scale.
 
I was referring to Queen Elizabeth 1 who ruled England centuries ago. Apparently you don't know there's more than one Queen Elizabeth.

Ah, I didn't realize that time travel was part of the equation.

Just as a matter of curiosity, other than Elizabeth I, are there any others among the many relatively well known historic kings, empererors, and other royals with absolute powers under whose rule you would have preferred to live than living in a democracy? What do you think yor odds would have been to get a good* monarch? (*However you are defining "good.")

And how much do you actually know about an ordinary person's life in Elizabethan England?