If veganism is just a diet, then…

Gaspard

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If veganism is just a diet, then…


…vegans can enjoy watching dog fights, and bet on the winner, whilst eating a veggie burger.

…vegans can run a dairy factory farm as long as they don’t eat produces from their business.

…vegans can hunt to feed their dogs and cats.

…vegans can shoot videos of animal torture, like Ssoyoung (but no mukbang is allowed).


What else?
 

David3

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If veganism is just a diet, then…


…vegans can enjoy watching dog fights, and bet on the winner, whilst eating a veggie burger.

…vegans can run a dairy factory farm as long as they don’t eat produces from their business.

…vegans can hunt to feed their dogs and cats.

…vegans can shoot videos of animal torture, like Ssoyoung (but no mukbang is allowed).


What else?
I think that’s why we have differentiating terms like “ethical vegan” and “dietary vegan”.
.
 
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Lou

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As far as I know, only Nickelodian argues that Veganism is just a diet. Everyone else here sees it as a lifestyle - maybe even a philosophy.

However, portions of the media use Plant-based and vegan interchangeably. Some of that is understandable because a vegan diet is plant-based.

I actually like it when the word "vegan" pops up in the news. Even if it is used incorrectly and/or without the modifier "diet" attached to it. For a long time, the word "vegan" was like a bad word.

I have mixed feeling about the words "ethical vegan" and "dietary vegan". IMHO, all vegans are ethical vegans and if you say "dietary vegan" you should just say "plant-based". I would think that would be more clear and concise. We don't need new extra labels. The old ones work just fine.

Although I do like that some of the labels allow for a wider spectrum of vegans. Many people find being fully vegan to be too hard or something. So let them be veganish, or the new one I just heard, a cheagan. A vegan who cheats. Daisy Ridley used that self desciption in an interview.
 
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Gaspard

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Yea I know guys. But it was tempting to illustrate this with outragously absurd narratives.
Although I do like that some of the labels allow for a wider spectrum of vegans. Many people find being fully vegan to be too hard or something. So let them be veganish, or the new one I just heard, a cheagan. A vegan who cheats. Daisy Ridley used that self desciption in an interview.
I also think it is good to make the vegan label more mainstreeam. However cheagans doesn't mean much to me: flexitarian or hypocrite would work better.
 
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Lou

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Yea I know guys. But it was tempting to illustrate this with outragously absurd narratives.

I also think it is better to make the vegan label more mainstreeam. However cheagans doesn't mean much to me: flexitarian or hypocrite would work better.
I disagree with your last sentence. Flexitarian doesn't have a very specific definition. but i don't associate it with being vegan. Almost vegetarian seems to be a closer fit.
I would not call anyone who is partially vegan and claims to be partially vegan a hypocrite. More honest to be a self-described cheagan.
I also allow for some flexibility in using the word vegan. I don't believe a person has to be 100% vegan to describe themselves as vegan.
 

Nekodaiden

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If veganism is just a diet, then…


…vegans can enjoy watching dog fights, and bet on the winner, whilst eating a veggie burger.

…vegans can run a dairy factory farm as long as they don’t eat produces from their business.

…vegans can hunt to feed their dogs and cats.

…vegans can shoot videos of animal torture, like Ssoyoung (but no mukbang is allowed).


What else?
Yes, that's right. Just like as a vegan a person can still lie, cheat
on their partner, steal, murder etc. Being a vegan doesn't make someone
a good person in all senses. If it's a personal choice it makes them
a good person in one sense.

Donald Watson described veganism as a diet. This makes it very simple
to determine. You either are or you aren't. There are no grey areas. If
a person goes for a year refraining from all animal products but purposely
and knowingly eats them 2 times, then they are vegan for a year minus
those 2 times, or a year minus 2 days if that happened on 2 separate days.

There are people here who, either for vanity/pride or guilty conscience
make a great big deal about non-dietary/purchase choices that are included
in their "veganism". Like what they study, what career they choose, how
they volunteer their time, even how and what they think about all kinds of
subjects and extending that judgement (as a part of their "veganism") to
others. Not only is it ridiculous it's also (to me) an indication that the
overcompensation means they aren't meeting the basic requirement to be called
vegan - ie: they are eating animal products.

Veganism, although it may be mentioned by religion and has moral implications, isn't itself a religion. Yes, as a vegan one could do all the things you mentioned and even worse things. However, one might wonder *why* any of those
actions would be chosen if one also chooses to be vegan at least partly for
the sake of it being a way of excluding unnecessary harm.
 
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Bob Who

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When I do have the discussion with people about what I eat, I tell them I eat a vegan diet. The reason I say it that way is because many of the people I encounter equate plant based as having a bit of wiggle room , that one is 95% plants and will have some cheese or what ever. I then have to go on to explain that I don't consume any animal products. I find it is more accurate in my dealings with the general public.

I changed my lifestyle description to ''Strict Vegetarian" because my understanding is, that is a person who eschews animal products in their diet. I don't wish to unintentionally misrepresent myself. I also know that term-- if used in public would conjure up the image of someone who could consume dairy and /or eggs.
 

Lou

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When I do have the discussion with people about what I eat, I tell them I eat a vegan diet. The reason I say it that way is because many of the people I encounter equate plant based as having a bit of wiggle room , that one is 95% plants and will have some cheese or what ever. I then have to go on to explain that I don't consume any animal products. I find it is more accurate in my dealings with the general public.

I changed my lifestyle description to ''Strict Vegetarian" because my understanding is, that is a person who eschews animal products in their diet. I don't wish to unintentionally misrepresent myself. I also know that term-- if used in public would conjure up the image of someone who could consume dairy and /or eggs.
Good points. I hadn't considered those before. Thanks.
I have also "equated plant-based diet as having some wiggle room". And I'm not the only one. Here is a quote from the Food Network.

As such, eating plant-based does not mean to go vegetarian or even vegan. Rather to eat a wide-variety of foods, including the often under-consumed plant-based foods.​

Not that I'm saying the Food Network is an authority on the subject. Just reinforcing your point on people's perception of Plant-Based.

I also get your point about strict vegetarian. I'm not even sure most people know what that means. I used to be a strict vegetarian - and I didn't even know "strict vegetarian" was what I was. I thought I was just a vegetarian.
 

Nekodaiden

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I would not call anyone who is partially vegan and claims to be partially vegan a hypocrite. More honest to be a self-described cheagan.
What's a "partial" vegan? Does that mean eating chicken on Tuesdays, but refraining the rest of the week? Or maybe it means eating eggs and cheese whenever one goes out? Isn't everyone a "partial" vegan to a lesser or greater degree whenever they aren't eating animal products?

I also allow for some flexibility in using the word vegan. I don't believe a person has to be 100% vegan to describe themselves as vegan.
Yes, that should be clear by now to anyone who searches through your posts. The reason people usually want to change the definition of something (either by extending it to mean things it didn't before) or by "softening" what it prohibits to some degree (eating animal products in the case of veganism) is because that is the only way they can wear the label.
 

Gaspard

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For me, a vegan should eat a 100% vegan diet (unintentional mistakes are tolerated). Also a vegan should reflect upon our relation to non-human animals and choose the vegan option as much as possible when purchasing other products surch as clothes, furniture, etc.
Just like as a vegan a person can still lie, cheat
on their partner, steal, murder etc. Being a vegan doesn't make someone
a good person in all senses.
Good point.
I also allow for some flexibility in using the word vegan. I don't believe a person has to be 100% vegan to describe themselves as vegan.
I 100% disagree with you. We shouldn't weaken the term Vegan.
I would not call anyone who is partially vegan and claims to be partially vegan a hypocrite. More honest to be a self-described cheagan.
Sorry but "cheagan" sounds naff to me.
 
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silva

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Yes, that's right. Just like as a vegan a person can still lie, cheat
on their partner, steal, murder etc. Being a vegan doesn't make someone
a good person in all senses. If it's a personal choice it makes them
a good person in one sense.

Donald Watson described veganism as a diet. This makes it very simple
to determine. You either are or you aren't. There are no grey areas. If
a person goes for a year refraining from all animal products but purposely
and knowingly eats them 2 times, then they are vegan for a year minus
those 2 times, or a year minus 2 days if that happened on 2 separate days.

There are people here who, either for vanity/pride or guilty conscience
make a great big deal about non-dietary/purchase choices that are included
in their "veganism". Like what they study, what career they choose, how
they volunteer their time, even how and what they think about all kinds of
subjects and extending that judgement (as a part of their "veganism") to
others. Not only is it ridiculous it's also (to me) an indication that the
overcompensation means they aren't meeting the basic requirement to be called
vegan - ie: they are eating animal products.

Veganism, although it may be mentioned by religion and has moral implications, isn't itself a religion. Yes, as a vegan one could do all the things you mentioned and even worse things. However, one might wonder *why* any of those
actions would be chosen if one also chooses to be vegan at least partly for
the sake of it being a way of excluding unnecessary harm.
I can't understand why you're so adamant about vegans refraining from eating animal products, but not their use in general.
I'd rather someone have the occasional cheese pizza slice with friends but avoid as many other things animals are used in, particular products tested on animals.
Myself, I have two pairs of shoes-same ones- that I almost always wear. I've gone through many vegan shoes, and exhausted my options, but these fit my weird feet and gait like nothing ever has. I'm afraid for when they wear out, as the vegan shoes that were comparable are quite worn
Anyway, I'm a pragmatist. I still take regular old vitamin D3 out of fear of not keeping my hard won levels up, and cost of high does vegan D3. Now that I can get a test cheaply I do plan on trying. My point is, I refrain from calling myself vegan because of this--because I feel the term vegan does need more of a commitment to avoiding the exploitation of animals.
Just avoiding animal products in diet is a plant based diet. Why make a distinction of calling yourself vegan? Just to eat processed foods?

I will always hold the term vegan as one who avoids the exploitation of animals in food, products, and entertainment. NOT that you're a good person or not! (What does that have to do with anything?)
 
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Nekodaiden

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I can't understand why you're so adamant about vegans refraining from eating animal products, but not their use in general.
I go by the Watson definition (the guy who coined the term "vegan") which he defined as a diet - a diet - basically - of exclusion of all animal products. Yes, I realize that there are moral implications to using non-dietary animal products (for instance, leather/wool etc), especially when such animals are bred for these purposes - however these have always been secondary. People do not even consider giving up the secondary products *until* they give up the dietary ones.

Muddying the definition to some sort of philosophy, or an extension of one's personality/beliefs is huge step in basically destroying the primary term to be a secondary or even nominal notion. This is what Lou has been doing nearly the entire time he has been on this site. This is why he can claim to be a vegan for 20 years, but also "transitioning" for 20 years. "Vegan" to him seems to be a much broader thing that includes all kinds of moral directives in which the dietary aspect is just a small part. With that view, what's the big deal in eating that occasional cheese, maybe some pork, or other animal - if it's just small part of a broad philosophy? People who want to be included "as a vegan" but don't want to stop eating animal products completely would find this notion welcome. Along with that notion comes confusion (for the individual), and also setting a bad example (for other individuals) - like seeing a "vegan" eat animal products while claiming to be vegan.

Just avoiding animal products in diet is a plant based diet. Why make a distinction of calling yourself vegan? Just to eat processed foods?

I will always hold the term vegan as one who avoids the exploitation of animals in food, products, and entertainment. NOT that you're a good person or not! (What does that have to do with anything?)
The OP attempted to illustrate a moral dilemma by stating that defining vegan as "just a diet" means that it basically lacks broader moral impact. I'm personally fine with that - because morals do not start or stop with being vegan, which is why I mentioned other immoral acts that have nothing to do with our relationships with (non-human) animals. Veganism is not a religion. Just because it touches on morality does not make it a religion - any more than "do not lie" or "do not steal" are religions.
 

silva

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I go by the Watson definition (the guy who coined the term "vegan") which he defined as a diet - a diet - basically - of exclusion of all animal products. Yes, I realize that there are moral implications to using non-dietary animal products (for instance, leather/wool etc), especially when such animals are bred for these purposes - however these have always been secondary. People do not even consider giving up the secondary products *until* they give up the dietary ones.

Muddying the definition to some sort of philosophy, or an extension of one's personality/beliefs is huge step in basically destroying the primary term to be a secondary or even nominal notion. This is what Lou has been doing nearly the entire time he has been on this site. This is why he can claim to be a vegan for 20 years, but also "transitioning" for 20 years. "Vegan" to him seems to be a much broader thing that includes all kinds of moral directives in which the dietary aspect is just a small part. With that view, what's the big deal in eating that occasional cheese, maybe some pork, or other animal - if it's just small part of a broad philosophy? People who want to be included "as a vegan" but don't want to stop eating animal products completely would find this notion welcome. Along with that notion comes confusion (for the individual), and also setting a bad example (for other individuals) - like seeing a "vegan" eat animal products while claiming to be vegan.
I do agree with your points above


The OP attempted to illustrate a moral dilemma by stating that defining vegan as "just a diet" means that it basically lacks broader moral impact. I'm personally fine with that - because morals do not start or stop with being vegan, which is why I mentioned other immoral acts that have nothing to do with our relationships with (non-human) animals. Veganism is not a religion. Just because it touches on morality does not make it a religion - any more than "do not lie" or "do not steal" are religions.
I cannot agree with the OPs assertion!
I see more benefit to be mostly vegan in beliefs even if faulty, than to disavow other ways animals are exploited. My neighborhood for instance, is very animal and environmentally friendly but certainly few are fully vegan. ..........
Maybe I'm disillusioned by how many plant based health eaters I've run across that are total a--holes to anything AR or welfare.
Yes--- the plant based health group that hates vegans! They would fit the OP's group!
 

Hog

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@ Nekodaiden - Some of your posts deeply disturb me. But, that is my problem and not your problem.

I suspect that you are an abstract thinker. (That is a compliment.) I also believe that you dispassionately contemplate ideas in a search for truth. (I deeply respect that.)

You remind me of Ludwig Wichenstein. Wichenstein was a brilliant and famous logician. Bertrand Russell said that Wichenstein was the greatest genius he ever met. Wichenstein made fun of himself because he knew that much of his research was only a demonstration of the power of deductive logic.

I frequently looked back at my previous posts and ask, "What in the world were you thinking?" I hope I did not p!ss off somebody. I get lost in the philosophical sauce of my own deductive logic. In the end, I just look like an a$$hole. I am acting like Rainman in the 1988 movie.

Susanne Langer said that individuals construct meaning from the predictive affective emotional response to an experience. Langer would argue that all animals and humans construct meaning through inductive logic based on the experience. Thus, the experience comes before the language. Language and deductive thought is an afterthought of the experience.

I have strong autistic perception. In other words, I am strong in deductive logic but struggle with inductive social thought.

I am not capable of perceiving the world in the same way that you perceive the world. Thus, I find your thoughts disturbing. But, as I said, that is my problem and not your problem. I should respect that you think differently than me.

Nekodaiden, please remember that I can not perceive the world like you do. If I offend you, please remember that I am just a simple guy. I am hog. I am vegan.
 
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