I give up on vegan. vegan = bad (for me). please help

Tadpole

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I made the change around 2 years ago and I feel like I can't stick with it any longer.
I'm tired of vegan and vegetarian foods that for some reason are compelled to imitate meat and animal products - burgers, sausages, eggs...why?...and I'm tired of meeting vegan after vegan who seemingly only choose to be vegan for the fashionable status it may bring and to preach to meat eaters about how wrong they are. It's an individual choice as with any other diet/lifestyle, surely this shouldn't come with laying on a guilt trip to others who have chosen otherwise.
I want to carry on but become aware of the echo of our ancestors who have evolved and survived for millenia on a diet of meat and dairy, and I wrestle with the path I have chosen. Who am I to disregard what nature decreed throughout history... it has brought more confusion and questions than answers for me.
 

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Well, Sir, or Ma'am, first off, it's not likely that our ancestors actually did survive on large quantities of meat and dairy, as the propaganda would suggest. If you look around, we are certainly not thriving on that kind of diet. Secondly, do you really so easily let the actions of other people affect your personal choices? Why does it matter what other people - vegans or otherwise - do when it comes to making responsible, ethical, and healthy choices for you - and most of all - for the animals and life in general? If you don't want to "guilt-trip" people, then don't. It's that's simple. Third, a personal choice is a choice that doesn't have a victim, so no, it really isn't a personal choice, when one is choosing to eat meat. That said, you don't need to go around "guilt-tripping" people, there are other ways to show compassion and inspire change. Leading by example is one of them. Lastly, maybe try to get to know (and love) real, whole food - not processed vegan "junk" food? Maybe learn to cook? It's super easy to make a bean soup loaded with tons of veggies and served with rice... And even easier to load a potato with some broccoli, avocados, hot sauce and some onions - what's not to love about that? Or a bowl of frozen bananas, fresh or frozen berries, chopped dates... How is that so bad? I have heard there are over 22K edible plant species - why not make it fun to try to find out what those are?

That answers are really right in front of you. If nothing else, there are mountains of evidence proving what we know is better for human health. For me, seeing family member after family member get sick and die from diet-preventable diseases (and watching most of the ones still living follow with those same habits) was enough for me. This started with my father dying from heart disease when I was just 20 years old.

Like Wayne Dyer said, "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change."

I became pescatarian 28 years before choosing to finally be vegan. What did I struggle with? The things that were stopping me from becoming vegan for those 27 years. I have "struggled" with nothing else since becoming vegan, because I don't care what other people are doing around me (I do care, but I don't let other people's actions - rational or otherwise - affect the conviction of my decisions). I'm making what I believe to the right choice - for my health, for the animals, and for the planet. What other "fashionable" people are doing I really couldn't care less.

TLDR?:
You know what *I* am tired of? I am tired of watching people and animals suffer and die when they don't have to.
 
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Lou

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I gave TofuRobot a thumbs up for her post. But I'm really sorry. Her post deserves at least 4 thumbs up.

Most of what I will say just repeats what she said. But it is worth repeating. Maybe if you hear it enough it will sink in.
And I will apolgize in advance for being a little harsh. And although you may not have said this stuff to me before - I've heard it all before.

"I'm tired of vegan and vegetarian foods"

I'm sorry. but i am going to insult you. Maybe the only reason you are tired of vegetarian foods is that you are uneducated, ignorant, or lazy. And if you have been vegan for two years... I'm afraid it might be all of those.
Let's just say there are only 2000 different recipes for vegan and vegetarian dishes. You could have a different one every day, three times a day, for two years, before you have to repeat the same dish.

but you know what, there are way more than 2000 dishes. Just go online or the library. there are recipes books and websites with subjects like Vegan recipes under $3, vegan recipes that take less than 15 minutes. vegan recipes that use less than 5 ingredients, vegan recipes you can make in one pot. You should be able to find dozens that you have never had before. And meet your budget, or time constraints, or whatever.

But let's just assume you are just uneducated. In that case, good news: you have come to the right place. We have some threads called "what I had for dinner". or lunch. or breakfast. Our What I had for dinner thread is now almost 30 pages long.

I'm tired of meeting vegan after vegan who seemingly only choose to be vegan for the fashionable status it may bring and to preach to meat eaters about how wrong they are.

I could be wrong but I don't think you will meet anyone like that here. We are all nice and tame vegans.

I want to carry on but become aware of the echo of our ancestors who have evolved and survived for millenia on a diet of meat and dairy

We only evolved to be able to tolerate dairy in the last 10,000 years. Before that, Everyone was lactose intolerant. Even today something like half the world's pop is lactose intolerant. So let's do the math. Homo sapiens has been around for at least 40,000 years. So 75% of their existence was dairy free. But Homo sapiens has been around 300,000 years. so H. sapiens was dairy free for 97% of its existence. And if I go back to the early Homos, its like half of one percent.

Now we can't actually put a date on when man started eating meat. But being that it is almost impossible to kill, butcher, and eat game without fire and stone tools we probably didn't eat any or much meat beforehand. Maybe grubs, eggs, and some other small slow moving animals. just like our cousins gorillas and chimps, our ancestors probably ate a very vegetarian diet. The discovery of Fire is less than 200,000 years ago. Stone tools are less than 2 million. So a big fraction of homo's existence had both. But... before Homo, there was a whole bunch of hominids who never had fire or tools. And they go back for 15 million years. so if you include them in our evolution timeline, only about 10% of our evolution was with meat.

But even if eating meat was part of our evolution. there is a great quote that says it best.

Just because we can doesn’t mean we should. Just because we once did doesn’t mean we always have to. Once we know better, I think we have the obligation and responsibility to do things better. - Colelen Patrick Goudreau
Anyway, welcome aboard and from now on I'll be nicer.
 

Forest Nymph

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I have a Bachelor's of Science (almost) and I can reassure you that the idea that meat and dairy are what "nature decreed" throughout history is complete and utter BS. Only people who don't understand evolution think like that. I'm not picking on you, I'm making an observation on this mainstream pseudo-science that a lot of Westerners believe in so you have probably heard acquaintances lay this on you. You can officially let them know it's garbage. I can even post studies, if you like.

Evolution does NOT mean we were "meant" to eat a certain way it only means we CAN. Do you see the difference? Humans can rape and murder and I'm sorry to know that these behaviors served humanity in the past competing over resources or reproducing, but are you going to start raping and murdering just because the Franks and Turks did? No? That's because humans also have social intelligence and learned that better long term results come from working most things out through discussion or forms of non-lethal punishment, and that humans are happier and have better relationships with their partner (and their children) if they don't rape their partner.

Veganism is like it. It's like realizing that something that may have once seemed normal or essential is not serving you or humanity or any form of life in the long term, and that thing is eating animals.

I can post multiple articles and studies on how it was actually fire and cooking, not meat, that allowed us to evolve, and even if meat had played some critical role at stage of evolution, it was due to it being calorically dense, and you have access to plenty of calories in the modern first world so you don't have that excuse. Most early humans ate a majority plant based diet with the occasional insect, pilfered egg, or scavenged carcass that an actual carnivore killed.

Also saying that you're tired of being vegan because you don't like that some vegans are trendy and superficial is completely illogical. You didn't become vegan because all vegans on the face of the earth are people who you are compatible with or have the same motives as yours. You also don't quit being vegan just because some vegans are annoying or "mean" or whatever happens to bug you. If you're vegan for the animals, the environment, even your own health, what do other people have to do with it? Are you going to start stealing because some people do? And don't get me started on how completely undesirable human beings are meat eaters. You're actually saying you want to eat animals again because there aren't any carnists out there who are trendy, annoying asshats?

Meat eaters are wrong and their choices are selfish and dangerous, although some of them are unaware of it. Veganism is much more serious than choosing a diet plan. It's an ethical philosophy, a method of changing the world. I think owning slaves is wrong and I don't own slaves, and you're damn right, I'll preach at other people that they shouldn't own slaves either.
 

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Damn. Tadpole. now i want to give Forst Nymph 5 thumbs up. You sure are getting some great responses.

But i have a correction to make.

You said, "I'm tired of meeting vegan after vegan who seemingly only choose to be vegan for the fashionable status it may bring and to preach to meat eaters about how wrong they are."

Then I said, " I could be wrong but I don't think you will meet anyone like that here. We are all nice and tame vegans."

I forgot about Forest Nymph. She has been known to smack down a carnist or two.


;)
 

Emma JC

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welcome, Tadpole

So many great responses here!

I just watched Freelee's latest video and I suggest you do the same - she lays it on the line and the line is not "fashionable".

Emma JC
 

Jamie in Chile

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Some good thoughts here.

The appeal to nature is not a good argument. You could use that to justify anything. It's not an ethical argument. It doesn't change the fact that eating meat causes unnecessary suffering and death.

Just avoid those "fake" foods and by the way just because you are vegan doesn't mean you have to hang with someone if they are a vegan.

Some vegans actually thrive more hanging out less with other vegans. Perhaps that is a personal choice.

I think some of the responses are a bit harsh though. A more supportive and helpful exchange may be more like to help someone make the right choices. I'm not talking about what's justified, but what might be effective.
 
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Great timing, but Plant Based News released an interview yesterday with Dr. Klaper in which he answers this exact question.

 
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Tadpole

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Well... that was quite a response.
I wish I could feel more enthused about some of these elaborate (and partly relevant) responses. Although there is some food for thought and interesting ideas, I have unfortunately heard most of it all before.
I won't address individual responses, however it is difficult to take many of these opinions seriously when the language used is condescending, disparaging and based on wild assumptions - baring in mind my post did not give much information about my background (for instance I can cook, very well!).
I came looking for some open minded support but instead the overall response has only further cemented my previous concerns about fellow vegans prone to preaching fundamentalist views and seeking to inflict some kind of guilt or shame to others who may not agree entirely with them.

To assert that '"Meat eaters are wrong and their choices are selfish and dangerous" is completely abhorrent and wreckless - this is not for you or I to decide and no matter how long I had been vegan for I would never express such arrogance.
I am not capable of insulting swathes of humanity (alive or dead) with such statements, purely based on what they believe is right to eat... I'm thinking of lost cultures such as native american and the sami, who put our pathetic modern way of life to shame with their complex and sustainable relationship to nature - many were subsistence hunters reliant on plants AND animals. We cannot declare that their ways were wrong, it was a part of survival and religion for them.
This of course is quite different to modern methods of obtaining meat, which I accept is often digusting and does cause great suffering.
But I digress...
Let's get real, no diet is free from suffering - monoculture and mass production of crops has devastating effects on animal habitats, not to mention the cruel manipulation of insects and other creatures to support increasing demand for certain plant based foods.

We are not able to eat unless we cause the death and demise of another living organism, plant or animal. You could argue that some are designed to be eaten (fruits), but others are just growing happily til we rip them out of the ground for our own fuel (selfishly??) see wada mean.

To be holier than thou purely because you have made the choice to be vegan is completely ignorant and shameful.

As with any line of study we can focus our attention narrowly to find supporting evidence and studies that may present our theories in the light of being the "ultimate truth", however this, like many academic/intellectual ventures, is short sighted and a work in progress.
In order words I am thinking holistically/in the mindset of "what is truly the right choice", in contrast to "I'm vegan, I'M RIGHT, it's the whole truth, death to the meat-eaters!".

There are a lot of things I love about being vegan but to simply regurgitate the same 'vegan gospel' and in an aggressive manner is exactly what I tire of. (even more so after reaching out here).
 

Forest Nymph

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Great timing, but Plant Based News released an interview yesterday with Dr. Klaper in which he answers this exact question.

I'm really glad they've made an example of her, just because she's made hundreds of thousands of dollars off selling the idea of beauty, thinness and/or health connected to the vegan label, then suddenly dropped it over some alleged IBS. And of course people who don't trust veganism to begin with are like "oh yes yes poor girl we knew all along."

WELL. As it turns out, she purchased a $1300 wool rug and an equally or more expensive couch for her new place that has bird feathers in it. So she's a scam artist. Now I'm absolutely thrilled she's being dragged through the mud. I'm not angry enough to want a dart board with her picture on it, but close enough.
 

Forest Nymph

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Well... that was quite a response.
I wish I could feel more enthused about some of these elaborate (and partly relevant) responses. Although there is some food for thought and interesting ideas, I have unfortunately heard most of it all before.
I won't address individual responses, however it is difficult to take many of these opinions seriously when the language used is condescending, disparaging and based on wild assumptions - baring in mind my post did not give much information about my background (for instance I can cook, very well!).
I came looking for some open minded support but instead the overall response has only further cemented my previous concerns about fellow vegans prone to preaching fundamentalist views and seeking to inflict some kind of guilt or shame to others who may not agree entirely with them.

To assert that '"Meat eaters are wrong and their choices are selfish and dangerous" is completely abhorrent and wreckless - this is not for you or I to decide and no matter how long I had been vegan for I would never express such arrogance.
I am not capable of insulting swathes of humanity (alive or dead) with such statements, purely based on what they believe is right to eat... I'm thinking of lost cultures such as native american and the sami, who put our pathetic modern way of life to shame with their complex and sustainable relationship to nature - many were subsistence hunters reliant on plants AND animals. We cannot declare that their ways were wrong, it was a part of survival and religion for them.
This of course is quite different to modern methods of obtaining meat, which I accept is often digusting and does cause great suffering.
But I digress...
Let's get real, no diet is free from suffering - monoculture and mass production of crops has devastating effects on animal habitats, not to mention the cruel manipulation of insects and other creatures to support increasing demand for certain plant based foods.

We are not able to eat unless we cause the death and demise of another living organism, plant or animal. You could argue that some are designed to be eaten (fruits), but others are just growing happily til we rip them out of the ground for our own fuel (selfishly??) see wada mean.

To be holier than thou purely because you have made the choice to be vegan is completely ignorant and shameful.

As with any line of study we can focus our attention narrowly to find supporting evidence and studies that may present our theories in the light of being the "ultimate truth", however this, like many academic/intellectual ventures, is short sighted and a work in progress.
In order words I am thinking holistically/in the mindset of "what is truly the right choice", in contrast to "I'm vegan, I'M RIGHT, it's the whole truth, death to the meat-eaters!".

There are a lot of things I love about being vegan but to simply regurgitate the same 'vegan gospel' and in an aggressive manner is exactly what I tire of. (even more so after reaching out here).
Your issues seem personal and psychological and not at all based in fact. Many vegans are quiet, but they wouldn't be vegan if they didn't have the conviction that veganism is right. Not "preaching" doesn't make their ethical stance any less true.

My B.S. is specifically in Environmental Science and I've applied to grad school for Sustainable Food Systems, and I'm sorry but you're absolutely over-simplifying and generally wrong in what you're saying. Study after study proves vegan diets to be more sustainable than any diet on earth. Even junk food veganism is more sustainable than eating meat. In some regions, local dairy (i.e. being a lacto-vegetarian) is more sustainable than veganism, but they're very close overall. Global studies from different nations have shown veganism and vegetarianism to be much closer in sustainability than any diet including meat. Furthermore, while some animals may be indirectly harmed by fruit, vegetable and grain agriculture, there actually would be ironically less fruit, grain and vegetable agriculture if there were no animal agriculture. Meat eaters love to jump up and down on this point, and it's absurd, since global farming could be reduced so sharply that even wildlife or small rodents harmed by vegetable/grain agriculture would be less of an issue if animal ag ended.

I attend a school that's on former tribal land, we work closely with Native tribes, and there are fisheries labs on my campus. In fact there are fisheries studies done within the sustainable food program on the graduate level just as I plan to do with plant-based, and they largely work with Natives from a few local tribal councils. The ridiculousness of you bringing this up is only reflected in the fact that the vast majority of non-tribal people in Western society get their fish from unsustainable commercial fishing that harms aquatic mammals and is the number one cause of oceanic plastic pollution. Comparing the average Chad or Emily from the U.S. or UK to how tribal people once lived is a strawman argument, my friend. I never said that people living in the Australian bush as aborigines had to be vegan, and I doubt that most educated vegans would make such a pointless argument when those people live so close to the earth, don't participate in global agricultural systems, and their actual populations are so small they make up a tiny part of the carbon footprint. But as someone who lives and goes to school close to tribal councils and reservations, you can't possibly believe that the average Native American still lives this way.

There's nothing ignorant and shameful about what anyone said here. If anything, you seem ignorant, and have some social qualm due to family, a partner, or a new social group of friends that has lead you to these weak arguments. You're making Twitter SJW arguments. I've also "heard them all before."
 
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Lou

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welcome, Tadpole

So many great responses here!

I just watched Freelee's latest video and I suggest you do the same - she lays it on the line and the line is not "fashionable".

Emma JC
Freelee is back?
 

Tadpole

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You have clearly engaged with a lot of literature and recycled 'facts' during your time at university and I hope that you are able to relate some of this to real life to build a bigger picture once you have completed your degree.
Facts are great, but they're not much use when your head is buried the books all the while.
I attained my BSc and MA some 12 years ago and have since learned that you need to look around - especially away from academia - and keep an open mind no matter how much you believe you know the true nature of the world.
 

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What food is meant for us to have would sensibly be what is healthiest. Having just whole plant-based food, with no processed food, yet being sure to get vitamin B12, is the very healthiest for us. So such is food we are meant to have. Because much of history people were not having that doesn't mean all our ancestors were that way. Civilization wasn't the healthiest, for most people.

There are sites that really help, I generally suggest www.forksoverknives.com. I don't like getting the imitation food that looks like meat. I am over meat, and use produce foods along with beans and whole grain food that are much healthier. I will use plant-based milks, made from nuts generally, these are still healthy, and just like coconut milk, don't have to be avoided just because of resemlance to milk taken from animals producing it meant for their young.
 
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Forest Nymph

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You have clearly engaged with a lot of literature and recycled 'facts' during your time at university and I hope that you are able to relate some of this to real life to build a bigger picture once you have completed your degree.
Facts are great, but they're not much use when your head is buried the books all the while.
I attained my BSc and MA some 12 years ago and have since learned that you need to look around - especially away from academia - and keep an open mind no matter how much you believe you know the true nature of the world.
We're actually probably about the same age. I went back to school. I've had plenty of time to look around, and live around people of other races and cultures during my life in LA before I moved here.

Your issues can't be addressed by any logic or rationality. The most I can gather from your post is "I don't like being associated with vegans because some are preachy" which is a totally dumb reason to believe or not believe in something. People don't stop believing in God just because some religious people are assholes. Conversely, a lot of atheists will never be converted though some religious people are really nice and help the people of the world. Your arguments are lame.

Veganism can be supported to be a more rational choice for preventing harm to animals, both agriculturally and with wildlife. Therefore the argument "no diet is perfect" is also dumb, because if veganism isn't perfect, but it's still more sustainable and less harmful than eating meat, then OBVIOUSLY being vegan is "correct" or "preferable" if you wish.

Then, the last leg you try to stand on is "tribal people lived more sustainably than modern people." Well, I'm not sure how some small tribes lived 500-1000 years ago justifies you eating commercial fish or agriculturally raised cattle in the 21st century, but I'm sure you'll find some way to justify it, if you are looking desperately enough to give into your craving for bacon or please your new partner with your opinions.

Nihilism is so outdated, it's so 90s, it's so ineffective in a dying world, so spare me your "all life choices are equal" garbage. I believed that when I was in my late teens, ironically, because you seem to believe you developed this morally lazy, commercially trendy world view from maturity. No, actually, you developed it from watching television.
 

Forest Nymph

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Freelee is back?
Freelee is really interesting now. She lives in the rain forest and doesn't shave or wear make-up anymore, she has a different partner now, and has dropped all of the pretentious and vain banana stuff.
 

Tadpole

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Forest Nymph you need to ask yourself what you are so angry about? Notice my patience with your ranting and how I'm able to restrain myself from using personal insults and petty language - 'lame' and 'dumb'. It really shows up badly as intolerance.
It seems you continue to make false assumptions and dwell on trivial points to support your own fixed views. Argument? What happened to conversation? Perhaps try giving "advice" or engaging in discussion without the goal of trying to feel victorious. The ego is an ugly thing when you can't control it.

It seems we don't have much to offer each other here.
Go ahead with the small minded "meat eaters are wrong" rhetoric and see how much piece of mind it brings you.
Myself, I'll keep an open mind thank you and remain respectful and rational in response to other opinions (even filthy carnists).
 
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Forest Nymph

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Forest Nymph you need to ask yourself what you are so angry about? Notice my patience with your ranting and how I'm able to restrain myself from using personal insults and petty language - 'lame' and 'dumb'. It really shows up badly as intolerance.
It seems you continue to make false assumptions and dwell on trivial points to support your own fixed views. Argument? What happened to conversation? Perhaps try giving "advice" or engaging in discussion without the goal of trying to feel victorious. The ego is an ugly thing when you can't control it.

It seems we don't have much to offer each other here.
Go ahead with the small minded "meat eaters are wrong" rhetoric and see how much piece of mind it brings you.
Myself, I'll keep an open mind thank you and remain respectful and rational in response to other opinions (even filthy carnists).
Look you're obviously not vegan, I'm starting to think that you're actually a troll. You say you came here wanting support for blah blah blah, and people offered different perspectives (some of the vegans here are very polite and not at all ethically aggressive) and you insulted every single one of them. From the meekest member to me, you claimed we were "ignorant."

When I showed you that I was not ignorant, you suddenly decided I was too into facts and books and needed more life experience. When I told you I had life experience, you resorted to saying I'm angry. Saying your arguments are lame and your reasons are dumb aren't personal insults. I'm starting to wonder if your Masters is in something like Fine Arts or Dance because you certainly have a very poor grasp of science and philosophy, comparable to someone with only high school or a C-degree bachelor's of arts.

If you want to go sing kumbaya and hold hands with meat eaters, there's plenty of commercial chain yoga studios or Starbucks locations where you can do that. Like 90 percent of the world's population eats meat. You're hardly "open minded" if anything you seem like a sheep whose only problems with veganism are based in a) wanting to fit in socially with the majority and b) wanting to identify with a fictitious past "ancestor" who ate animals.

What sort of support did you think you would get here? Did you think we'd all say, yeah, we only eat carrots and kale because it's our personal dietary choice, like preferring purple to green, or the mountains to the beach. That's an utterly childish and idiotic misunderstanding of what veganism is.
 

Tadpole

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Oh dear.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to prove with these delusional histrionics but I would advise focussing your attention on something more productive and less hateful. Perhaps then you wouldn't be so angry?
We always have two choices, hate or love, the pathway to a grievance or a miracle ... choose love and you'll be much happier.
Anyways, thanks FredVegrox some interesting ideas there and I will check out the link. Along the lines of the kind of helpful response I was hoping for incidentally.
 
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Forest Nymph

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Oh dear.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to prove with these delusional histrionics but I would advise focussing your attention on something more productive and less hateful. Perhaps then you wouldn't be so angry?
We always have two choices, hate or love, the pathway to a grievance or a miracle ... choose love and you'll be much happier.
Anyways, thanks FredVegrox some interesting ideas there and I will check out the link. Along the lines of the kind of helpful response I was hoping for incidentally.
Look you passive aggressive pseudo-Buddhist, I've seen this behavior before from climate change deniers too. They use the same arguments. "The climate has always changed" (ancestors) and "you should be open minded" (because when you present facts to them, they treat facts as though they were opinions) and "why are you angry?" (as if being upset about the world ending and/or billions of animals dying each year was something to take lightly) ...it's a very specific personality that perpetuates these arguments, and don't get me wrong they aren't ALWAYS trolls sometimes they're quite serious, but in your case, pretending to be a vegan and all, I'm guessing you be trollin. They're incredibly stupid and simplistic stereotypical arguments that exist purely to deny concrete facts and belittle other human beings for caring about a cause.

Don't tell me you aren't a troll. A two year vegan who is graciously thanking someone for telling them about Forks Over Knives and the plant-based health info? As if. You couldn't make it much more obvious that you aren't a vegan.

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