Europe's history of the State controlling reproduction

[rainforests1]

Reading the book "Caliban and the Witch", it's mentioned that Europe's population was declining several centuries ago. The governments took action against all forms of birth control. The awful witchunts would follow. Assuming this is true, I'd argue it's one of the most important decisions ever made(not for the better). Do you think societies having too few children is a problem? Do you think governments should be getting involved with this issue?

 

[ledboots]

It's none of the government's business who does and does not have children imo.

 

[das_nut]

Reading the book "Caliban and the Witch", it's mentioned that Europe's population was declining several centuries ago. The governments took action against all forms of birth control. The awful witchunts would follow. Assuming this is true, I'd argue it's one of the most important decisions ever made(not for the better). Do you think societies having too few children is a problem? Do you think governments should be getting involved with this issue?

Why do you assume that's true? If this is during the age of witch hunts, there's many, many governments in Europe at the time (just look at the HRE or Italy). It seems unlikely that all of Europe's governments would take action against birth control.

 

[rainforests1]

Why do you assume that's true? If this is during the age of witch hunts, there's many, many governments in Europe at the time (just look at the HRE or Italy). It seems unlikely that all of Europe's governments would take action against birth control.

Why would they lie about that? They have nothing to gain from lying.

 

[das_nut]

Why would they lie about that? They have nothing to gain from lying.

Because they are trying to fit history into their own political narrative.

 

[Second Summer]

What sort of birth control did they have in Europe before the witch hunts? Must have been quite primitive stuff ...?

 

[das_nut]

What sort of birth control did they have in Europe before the witch hunts? Must have been quite primitive stuff ...?

The Romans reported had an abortificant so popular that the plant it came from became extinct.

 

[ledboots]

Many midwives were called witches way back when to discredit them, when the doctors wanted to take over the births and babies and all the $ it entails. (They were super successful taking it over here in the states.) Midwives did have strong herbs for birth control as well as abortificants in the olden days. Plus the time-honored half a hollowed-out lemon over the cervix.

 

[Mischief]

The Romans reported had an abortificant so popular that the plant it came from became extinct.

I suspect that you're thinking of the ancient Greeks, not Romans, and if I'm correct, the word is "abortifacient."

 

[das_nut]

I suspect that you're thinking of the ancient Greeks, not Romans, and if I'm correct, the word is "abortifacient."

You may be correct on the spelling (I didn't check) but you're wrong in believing that it was the Greeks and not the Romans.

 

[rainforests1]

Maybe 100,000 murdered, the towns being forced to watch(and in many cases their own children). The witchunts truly were one of Europe's darkest time periods. It's a tragedy how little attention it gets today.

What sort of birth control did they have in Europe before the witch hunts? Must have been quite primitive stuff ...?

Coitus interruptus.

 

[das_nut]

Maybe 100,000 murdered, the towns being forced to watch(and in many cases their own children). The witchunts truly were one of Europe's darkest time periods. It's a tragedy how little attention it gets today.

100,000 seems a little high. Wikipedia says 40,000 to 60,000, and gives other estimates of 35,000, or 40,000-50,000.

About 75-80% of them were women. There's at least one notable exception in Iceland, where the majority were men.

Wikipedia's article is here. I didn't know that the Catholic church tended to discourage witchhunts, believing that witches were just superstitious nonsense.

 

[Forster]

Coitus interruptus.

AKA parents.

 

[Mischief]

You may be correct on the spelling (I didn't check) but you're wrong in believing that it was the Greeks and not the Romans.

I guess you could say that the Romans were responsible for its extinction to the extent that it actually became extinct during Roman rule, despite their best efforts to preserve the plant; it had been harvested to the point of extinction by the Greeks, and was a rarity by the time the Romans came along. http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200904/devil.s.dung-the.world.s.smelliest.spice.htm (Source for the Wiki article.)

If you like to rely on Wiki instead, you should note that Wiki assigns the blame for the extinction onto the Greeks in its article on abortifacients: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortifacient

It should also be noted that the plant grew only in one specific location and couldn't be cultivated elsewhere; it's not as though it was something like a dandelion.

 

[Clueless Git]

What sort of birth control did they have in Europe before the witch hunts? Must have been quite primitive stuff ...?

Well, according to popular playground legend ...

In days of old, when knights were bold and condoms weren't invented; They wrapped old socks around their cocks and that's how babies were prevented.

 

[rainforests1]

100,000 seems a little high. Wikipedia says 40,000 to 60,000, and gives other estimates of 35,000, or 40,000-50,000.

About 75-80% of them were women. There's at least one notable exception in Iceland, where the majority were men.

Wikipedia's article is here. I didn't know that the Catholic church tended to discourage witchhunts, believing that witches were just superstitious nonsense.

Some also estimate in the millions. Just going by the book I read. We'll never know the exact figures so it's pointless to argue.

 

[Second Summer]

Getting back on the topic ...

Do you think societies having too few children is a problem? Do you think governments should be getting involved with this issue?

How would you define "too few children"? Too few to sustain the current population number? I don't really know the situation in all the countries in the world, but in general there are too many people already, so population decline is desirable.

It's none of the government's business who does and does not have children imo.

I agree, but I do think it's the government's business to create incentives so people choose to have less children, and/or have children later in life. Education, facilitating people to do efficient family planning, and apparently TV soaps (as seen in a previous thread) are all good measures.

 

[ledboots]

Japan is worried about its declining birth rate.
From 2009
"With a worried eye on declining birth rates and an aging population, Japan's new leaders propose offering new parents monthly payments totaling about $3,300 a year for every new child until the age of 15. Other initiatives include more state-supported day care, tuition waivers and other efforts designed to make parenthood more appealing." Continues here. http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/a/SB125495746062571927?mg=reno64-wsj#


Also long article here I read part of. .
http://m.humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/06/06/humupd.dmr026.full

 

[Muggle]

Some also estimate in the millions. Just going by the book I read. We'll never know the exact figures so it's pointless to argue.

Let me guess... Is it 9 million by any chance?


Any book that tries to claim more than 60,000 (and that's being incredibly generous, 40,000 is more reasonable) needs to be binned because the author has done very little research. Because 9 million was the figure estimated by a German dude in the 1700s. He used a tiny sample over a short period of time and multiplied it to cover the whole period of the trials over the whole continent. Which is where the idiotic idea of millions of witches persecuted comes from.
So yeah, it is important to argue because there is a lot of ******** out there which carries on being spouted by lazy people who can't be bothered to research their sources properly.