Direct Action Everywhere (DxE)-good or bad for veganism/or animals?

Andy_T

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DxE? Make sure to look closely at them, there are quite some controversial topics connected to them...


[***UPDATE*** Just for information, this is not a thread I started to attack DxE, but rather a part of a discussion on DxE that was extracted from another, longer thread. ***]
 
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Forest Nymph

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DxE? Make sure to look closely at them, there are quite some controversial topics connected to them...

LMFAO you can't be serious.
 

Andy_T

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Why so?
As you have mentioned Carol J. Adams among your sources, I would assume you would read and consider her position on the topic, which seems to be quite clear.

What specifically do you not consider serious, I really want to know?
Am open to all arguments that help me to better understand the issue...
 

Forest Nymph

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Why so?
As you have mentioned Carol J. Adams among your sources, I would assume you would read and consider her position on the topic, which seems to be quite clear.

What specifically do you not consider serious, I really want to know?
Am open to all arguments that help me to better understand the issue...
Usually people who make such criticisms are ignorant about what DXE does and don't even bother to research, let alone meet people involved.

I thought you might be joking because of a conversation elsewhere on the forum. If not, I'm going to explain it.

DXE is actually the most peaceful, non violent group in the animal rights movement. There's no way they could be a "cult" since they emphasize activism rather than veganism, which means while they strongly encourage veganism, they welcome vegetarians, too. Furthermore, as a DXE member all that is asked of you is literally two hours a month. One hour for a meeting and one for an action. That's hardly the Mormon-level of commitment Carol J Adams incorrectly describes. You need to remember that Carol J Adams is an old lady now. Most of her relevant work is 25-45 years old. Consider the possibility that she's out of touch with activism at her age or is too easily shocked by new things she doesn't understand.

DXE doesn't ask anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Level of participation varies by individual. And while they're different from PETA they do employ attention getting methods that of course will draw surprise or disapproval. That doesn't mean it's wrong or ineffective.
 
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Forest Nymph

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Why so?
As you have mentioned Carol J. Adams among your sources, I would assume you would read and consider her position on the topic, which seems to be quite clear.

What specifically do you not consider serious, I really want to know?
Am open to all arguments that help me to better understand the issue...
In addition to my last response I speak from greater authority than Carol J Adams as someone who has actually met the lead organizers of the group, am on a mailing list, I've been to the Berkeley ARC, I have participated in actions and have first hand knowledge of how they operate.

I've never been harassed by them after attending a conference or participating in an action. You are free to leave an event or action whenever.

The key organizers want to do what they're doing. They're no different than any other activist willing to be arrested for animal rescue or lock downs. In fact I truly question Adams motives in writing such a smear article. It reminds me of Gloria Steinham calling female Bernie Sanders supporters "bad feminists." Some of these second wave Ivy League feminists around 70 are really full of themselves, as much as any old white male conservative.
 

Nekodaiden

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DxE? Make sure to look closely at them, there are quite some controversial topics connected to them...

There is that, and there is this:



Here are some direct quotes from their website:


What do you mean by "animal liberation"?

We mean species equality. We mean legal protection of every feeling being's right to autonomy over their body. We mean legal personhood for nonhuman animals. We mean an end to human use of conscious, feeling animals for food, clothing, entertainment, research, or any other purpose that exploits nonhuman animals for human benefit. We mean a world where all animals’ interests are honored, and where love, care, respect, and freedom are present.
It may sound like paradise, but test it against reality:

- Legal "personhood" and "all animals interests are honored" necessarily means:

The mice or disease carrying rats in your residence must be "honored" no matter how much they chew your wires, burrow holes and steal grain and other food you keep there.

The "interests" of all predator animals to attack and kill all other human and non-human animals must be "honored"

A large rabid dog must have it's interests and autonomy respected even if it can tear apart a class of toddlers within several minutes on a playground.

The rights of the mosquito to suck blood and pass on disease shall not be denied.

Your living space, be it a city, town or outback dwelling may have once been the residence of Jimmy the Rat, and his living descendants holding ancient ancestral claim to the area, being the historical "custodians"

Legions of insects, and to a lesser extent wild animals, have their lives taken every year by mechanized machinery - ie: our transport of cars, buses, trains, airplanes and water craft. All such mechanized transport and utility vehicles must be banned.

Like common law marriage, common law residence law may apply to termites living in, and eating your home, if it can be proven they did so for at least 1 year.

Trees represent homes to different animals, particularly birds. No tree shall be felled as it represents a destruction of communal animal property, even though in the process of growing it can destroy fences, obstruct windows, present a fire hazard, block roadways or any other number of reasons.

The digging of ground for the laying of building foundations may unearth moles and other ground dwelling animals and insects. This is their home and as such all ground works must be pre-approved and restitution granted for violations thereof.

The rights of carnivores and natural omnivores to kill and maim human and non human animals shall not be denied. It is part of their natural interests and these interests shall be honored in love.



Another quote from DXE website:

" But this seemingly simple logic is flawed. In fact, the concept of veganism is harmful to the animal rights movement. And if you are serious about working for animal liberation, the first thing you should boycott is neither meat nor dairy nor eggs. The first thing you should boycott... is veganism."
He then backtracks and contradicts himself in following paragraphs but basically leaves this statement standing as if it's defensible.


This group should not be described as a "vegan activist" group because it clearly promotes militant action ahead of abstinance which can lead it's members to engage in or promote something like "ethical eggs", something already promoted by one member on this website numerous times.
 

Forest Nymph

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There is that, and there is this:



Here are some direct quotes from their website:




It may sound like paradise, but test it against reality:

- Legal "personhood" and "all animals interests are honored" necessarily means:

The mice or disease carrying rats in your residence must be "honored" no matter how much they chew your wires, burrow holes and steal grain and other food you keep there.

The "interests" of all predator animals to attack and kill all other human and non-human animals must be "honored"

A large rabid dog must have it's interests and autonomy respected even if it can tear apart a class of toddlers within several minutes on a playground.

The rights of the mosquito to suck blood and pass on disease shall not be denied.

Your living space, be it a city, town or outback dwelling may have once been the residence of Jimmy the Rat, and his living descendants holding ancient ancestral claim to the area, being the historical "custodians"

Legions of insects, and to a lesser extent wild animals, have their lives taken every year by mechanized machinery - ie: our transport of cars, buses, trains, airplanes and water craft. All such mechanized transport and utility vehicles must be banned.

Like common law marriage, common law residence law may apply to termites living in, and eating your home, if it can be proven they did so for at least 1 year.

Trees represent homes to different animals, particularly birds. No tree shall be felled as it represents a destruction of communal animal property, even though in the process of growing it can destroy fences, obstruct windows, present a fire hazard, block roadways or any other number of reasons.

The digging of ground for the laying of building foundations may unearth moles and other ground dwelling animals and insects. This is their home and as such all ground works must be pre-approved and restitution granted for violations thereof.

The rights of carnivores and natural omnivores to kill and maim human and non human animals shall not be denied. It is part of their natural interests and these interests shall be honored in love.



Another quote from DXE website:



He then backtracks and contradicts himself in following paragraphs but basically leaves this statement standing as if it's defensible.


This group should not be described as a "vegan activist" group because it clearly promotes militant action ahead of abstinance which can lead it's members to engage in or promote something like "ethical eggs", something already promoted by one member on this website numerous times.
Um no. That's not what any of that means. I'm pretty sure you know these are strawmen.
 
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Jay_W

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I am not involved with them personally, but see here, which is about DxE in particular, even though it doesn't mention them by name: https://wokevegana.com/2018/02/22/10-signs-your-animal-rights-group-is-actually-a-cult/

And, Google around and do your own research. Plenty of vegan orgs that organize protests and do actual work have systemic problems with enabling rapists among the organization's leadership, and sometimes "cult" is used as a euphemism for this.
 

Forest Nymph

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The following article on DXE is by Gary L. Francione and which I found interesting:

https://www.abolitionistapproach.co...acy-is-harmful-to-the-animal-rights-movement/
Gary Francionne is an abolitionist. He also talks crap about PETA. In Francionne's Ivory Tower, only complete individual abstinence from animal products is the goal. It's a nice idea in theory, but meat consumption has actually increased in the US rather than continuing its downwards trend. Gary Francionne engages in useless, self congratulatory personal purity. I frankly consider him to be a walking joke and by the way this is essentially a duplicate of the video you posted, which I am now guessing you didn't bother to watch or you'd know that.

DXE wants systemic change which is the only social change proven to have long term effects in history. That means they try to avoid making the movement about veganism (though all organizing members, all conferences and the Berkeley ARC are all vegan themselves) to get people who are vegetarian or plant based to help end the worst problem, which are factory farms.
 

Forest Nymph

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I am not involved with them personally, but see here, which is about DxE in particular, even though it doesn't mention them by name: https://wokevegana.com/2018/02/22/10-signs-your-animal-rights-group-is-actually-a-cult/

And, Google around and do your own research. Plenty of vegan orgs that organize protests and do actual work have systemic problems with enabling rapists among the organization's leadership, and sometimes "cult" is used as a euphemism for this.
This is a duplicate of what Andy posted by Carol J. Adams, not new information. Google is not a completely reliable academic source and it certainly doesn't compare to my real life experience, which honestly is nothing like the gossipy mansplaining in this thread.

No one in DXE is a rapist, in fact many lead organizers besides Wayne and Paul are women. This thread has already gone off the rails.
 

Forest Nymph

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What:


Why:



Conduct and Values:


Neutral/supportive major media coverage:


DXE also works in tandem with PETA. When I was in Berkeley a major PETA staff member was there for two days in a PETA shirt. So the idea of them being "anti vegan" is a deliberate misrepresentation of facts that they are inclusive to practical ends, not "anti vegan" since like 99% of DXE activists are vegan and they collaborate with PETA, who DXE feels has the "Go Vegan" end of things adequately covered.
 
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Jay_W

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I remember looking into them 2.5 years ago and getting a bad impression, and very much don't remember why. I don't feel it's a good use of my time to re-evaluate.

Sorry if that's unfair, but like, I don't think you can argue their activism is actually part of a coherent plan to end/significantly reduce the scope, of factory farming. It reads like a bunch of disjointed efforts to get people involved, which as with all things, you have to ask how getting people involved in this particular way and to this extent will be directly useful to the goal, of ending or significantly reducing the scope of factory farming? Not that very many organizations or people are doing any better than DxE in terms of having well-thought-out frameworks for how their actions will be eventually useful, but it seems like you'd have to do that if you wanted to have any real impact.
 

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I cannot agree with Forest Nymph’s take on Gary Francione’s views.

A: The current situation:
Factory farming produces greater profits because of “efficiency”. The majority of people find it abhorrent. But many put such thoughts to the backs of their minds because they are rewarded with cheap and plentiful meat, milk and eggs. There are also many who know nothing of factory farming horrors because of being hoodwinked by producers and retailers.

B: Cruelty free animal products:
Sheep safely graze, contented cows willingly produce milk and hens are happy to provide free range eggs. Probably the vast majority of people support this situation but many do not realise that all of these creature will have shortened lives and most will survive only a matter of days, weeks or months. They too have been hoodwinked by producers and retailers.

C: The ideal or rather the near ideal:
All our foods are produced by plants and there is no intentional killing of animals or suffering needlessly inflicted on them by us.

Many Wefarists see B as the end game. Some, though, see this as an intermediary stage. They want to be given an inch so they can take a yard.

Abolitionists such as Francione believe that activists would be better occupied leaving out the middle position and fighting for the move directly from A to C. It is not so much a matter of personal purity but rather the best use of human resources to obtain the ultimate vegan goal.

Roger.
 
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Forest Nymph

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I cannot agree with Forest Nymph’s take on Gary Francione’s views.

A: The current situation:
Factory farming produces greater profits because of “efficiency”. The majority of people find it abhorrent. But many put such thoughts to the backs of their minds because they are rewarded with cheap and plentiful meat, milk and eggs. There are also many who know nothing of factory farming horrors because of being hoodwinked by producers and retailers.

B: Cruelty free animal products:
Sheep safely graze, contented cows willingly produce milk and hens are happy to provide free range eggs. Probably the vast majority of people support this situation but many do not realise that all of these creature will have shortened lives and most will survive only a matter of days, weeks or months. They too have been hoodwinked by producers and retailers.

C: The ideal or rather the near ideal:
All our foods are produced by plants and there is no intentional killing of animals or suffering needlessly inflicted on them by us.

Many Wefarists see B as the end game. Some, though, see this as an intermediary stage. They want to be given an inch so they can take a yard.

Abolitionists such as Francione believe that activists would be better occupied leaving out the middle position and fighting for the move directly from A to C. It is not so much a matter of personal purity but rather the best use of human resources to obtain the ultimate vegan goal.

Roger.
Except that it's from a fantasy world?

Two years ago a sociologist did research on what is most effective in getting people to reduce animal product consumption. And it's asking people to go vegan not flexitarian. So on that part I agree with Francionne. I think campaigns to get people to "reduce" are a green washing waste of time.

BUT she also discovered that the number of vegans and vegetarians in the US have plateaued for several years and that Americans are eating more meat, even with all of these plant based capitalist products.

Its not working. It doesn't work just to sit on your butt and eat tofu and try to get other people to eat tofu.

THAT'S why I hate Gary Francionne. He's an Ivory Tower creep who doesn't seem in touch with real world results at all. He criticizes organizations that are rescuing real live animals and who are working to change laws. He is the epitome of useless and self righteous, and people often mock his Franci-bots who spend their time criticizing other vegans for not being vegan enough. Gary Francionne is the symbol of everything that's wrong with the vegan movement.
 

Forest Nymph

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I cannot agree with Forest Nymph’s take on Gary Francione’s views.

A: The current situation:
Factory farming produces greater profits because of “efficiency”. The majority of people find it abhorrent. But many put such thoughts to the backs of their minds because they are rewarded with cheap and plentiful meat, milk and eggs. There are also many who know nothing of factory farming horrors because of being hoodwinked by producers and retailers.

B: Cruelty free animal products:
Sheep safely graze, contented cows willingly produce milk and hens are happy to provide free range eggs. Probably the vast majority of people support this situation but many do not realise that all of these creature will have shortened lives and most will survive only a matter of days, weeks or months. They too have been hoodwinked by producers and retailers.

C: The ideal or rather the near ideal:
All our foods are produced by plants and there is no intentional killing of animals or suffering needlessly inflicted on them by us.

Many Wefarists see B as the end game. Some, though, see this as an intermediary stage. They want to be given an inch so they can take a yard.

Abolitionists such as Francione believe that activists would be better occupied leaving out the middle position and fighting for the move directly from A to C. It is not so much a matter of personal purity but rather the best use of human resources to obtain the ultimate vegan goal.

Roger.
Also, DXE aren't welfarists and they don't see it as the end game. They simply attack factory farms first because it's the most strategic.


Francionne also calls PETA "welfarists" because they've fought the state and federal government for practical progress. I can't believe anyone takes him seriously who isn't a college student.
 
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Forest Nymph

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I remember looking into them 2.5 years ago and getting a bad impression, and very much don't remember why. I don't feel it's a good use of my time to re-evaluate.

Sorry if that's unfair, but like, I don't think you can argue their activism is actually part of a coherent plan to end/significantly reduce the scope, of factory farming. It reads like a bunch of disjointed efforts to get people involved, which as with all things, you have to ask how getting people involved in this particular way and to this extent will be directly useful to the goal, of ending or significantly reducing the scope of factory farming? Not that very many organizations or people are doing any better than DxE in terms of having well-thought-out frameworks for how their actions will be eventually useful, but it seems like you'd have to do that if you wanted to have any real impact.
So what kind of activism do you do? Did you even read anything I posted?
 

Forest Nymph

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I recently purchased a book called How to Create a Vegan World by Tobias Leinhart, who has been an activist for years. Here in this short essay, he talks about the absurdity of Francionne endorsing no animal rights movements who are doing their best in the real world, as he narcissistically congratulates himself for being the best vegan ever:


Gary Francionne engages in something called an appeal to futility argument. It's frequently used by meat eaters. They say if you can't be a perfect vegan and not kill any animals, why bother at all. Francionne's version of this argument is that if your activist group isn't a magic wand to an idyllic end why be an activist. It's complete and total idiocy.
 

Forest Nymph

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I happened to find an actual podcast discussion between Wayne Hsiang from DXE and Gary Francionne. I had to turn it off after about an hour, because despite how polite, gracious, complimentary etc Wayne is, and no matter how much Gary completely erroneously mischaracterized DXE's position, Gary just kept yelling over Wayne like the scary, malignant cult figure he actually is.

I want to hope in good faith that none of you actually know anything about Gary Francionne. I've been aware of "master's" completely psychotic unhelpful attitude towards animal rights for about two years. Maybe some of you don't know how ridiculous he is.


Google "Francionne narcissist" and "Francionne cult" while you're at it.
 
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Nekodaiden

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I happened to find an actual podcast discussion between Wayne Hsiang from DXE and Gary Francionne. I had to turn it off after about an hour, because despite how polite, gracious, complimentary etc Wayne is, and no matter how much Gary completely erroneously mischaracterized DXE's position, Gary just kept yelling over Wayne like the scary, malignant cult figure he actually is.

I want to hope in good faith that none of you actually know anything about Gary Francionne. I've been aware of "master's" completely psychotic unhelpful attitude towards animal rights for about two years. Maybe some of you don't know how ridiculous he is.


Google "Francionne narcissist" and "Francionne cult" while you're at it.
Heh. I didn''t find Gary's arguments "psychotic" in the least. I'm at the 1 hr 6 minute mark as I write this, and the 54/55m mark up to where I am now is where I think some of his best arguments are. Thanks for sharing :)
 
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