Nutrition & Diet WFPB vs Keto-A Complex Challenge

[expos4ever]

Greetings all. Let me begin by saying I am new to veganism - only been at it for about three weeks.

I am sure you are all aware that, in the short term at least, it appears that keto diets often do better in serious studies (not anecdotes) - more weight loss, better glucose control, better lipids. However, the counterargument, methinks, is that they (keto diets) are (a) damaging in the long term; (b) likely to not otherwise maintain these benefits over time.

In short, the vegan argument is WPFB is better in the long term. And this is why I am trying veganism (I appreciate the ethical stuff as well).

I am interested in more details about the science in relation to glucose control in particular (and perhaps no one here will know this stuff, but no harm in asking).

As I understand it, the proponents of WFPB argue that "cells clogged with fat" is the big problem with diabetes - that this fat prevents the "insulin key from opening the lock on the cell" to allow the sugar to get out of the blood (where it causes harm) and into the cell (where it belongs). If you get rid of the fat, you can eat plenty of healthy carbs and your glucose control will get better even though you are increasing the amount of "sugar" in your blood. The reason: the sugar can now get into the cells and out of the bloodstream.

Fine. So far so good.

My question is this: Would the WFPB expert say that the reason that the WFPB diets can do worse than the keto in the short term (say over 12 weeks) is that it takes time to clear the cells of this fat? By contrast, if you go keto, you will almost instantly drop your blood glucose for rather obvious reasons. I have watched a lot of videos from the likes of Dr. Barnard and Dr. Khambatta but they never appear to make this kind of case.

I hope my question is clear and I would be happy to clarify if necessary.

 

[Emma JC]

welcome to the forum

I agree with most of what you are saying and regarding your last question, I will answer with a question... why would you wish to instantly drop your blood glucose level?

I did a quick google search with the following terms " wfpb vs keto blood glucose " and a number of interesting articles popped up, you may wish to do the same and maybe the answer you are searching for will be there.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

 

[Lou]

Full disclosure: I am anti-keto

Not because I don't believe it doesn't work, I know it does. but that it gets too much attention and there is too much misinformation.

Even the biggest proponents of keto agree it is not a long term solution. but it seems like every keto dieter I have ever met sees it as such.

BTW, it seems like @expos4ever has a uniquely clear view on the subject.

Anyway, if your weight or your glucose levels are an immediate risk to a person's health - a person should use keto. Its a good fast way to lose weight and drop glucose levels.

However, many people have issues with getting off keto. Some end up right back on square one. (although I do believe a person can pull of a safe dismount - its more theoretical than practical.) if you were in trouble before you started your keto diet there may be little room for mistakes.

So IMHO, the best bet is just get started on WFPB. You can skip the weeks of yo-yoing with Keto and just start getting the slow but steady benefits of WFPB. Sort of like the tortoise and the hare. but in this case the hare not only sometimes runs backwards but is also doesn't have the endurance to finish the race from the beginning.

I'm not sure I answered your question but I hope I provided some clarity.

Oh, and @Emma, people may want to " instantly drop your blood glucose level" when their BS levels are dangerously high and life threatening. Hopefully at that point they are already on insulin. Although I know that a big change in diet can help someone not start insulin.

Dr. Fuhrman and Dr. Gregar have used WFPB diets to keep people off insulin. And if I remember right, the Forks over Knives movie contains a few more stories like that.

 

[David3]

Greetings all. Let me begin by saying I am new to veganism - only been at it for about three weeks.

I am sure you are all aware that, in the short term at least, it appears that keto diets often do better in serious studies (not anecdotes) - more weight loss, better glucose control, better lipids. However, the counterargument, methinks, is that they (keto diets) are (a) damaging in the long term; (b) likely to not otherwise maintain these benefits over time.

In short, the vegan argument is WPFB is better in the long term. And this is why I am trying veganism (I appreciate the ethical stuff as well).

I am interested in more details about the science in relation to glucose control in particular (and perhaps no one here will know this stuff, but no harm in asking).

As I understand it, the proponents of WFPB argue that "cells clogged with fat" is the big problem with diabetes - that this fat prevents the "insulin key from opening the lock on the cell" to allow the sugar to get out of the blood (where it causes harm) and into the cell (where it belongs). If you get rid of the fat, you can eat plenty of healthy carbs and your glucose control will get better even though you are increasing the amount of "sugar" in your blood. The reason: the sugar can now get into the cells and out of the bloodstream.

Fine. So far so good.

My question is this: Would the WFPB expert say that the reason that the WFPB diets can do worse than the keto in the short term (say over 12 weeks) is that it takes time to clear the cells of this fat? By contrast, if you go keto, you will almost instantly drop your blood glucose for rather obvious reasons. I have watched a lot of videos from the likes of Dr. Barnard and Dr. Khambatta but they never appear to make this kind of case.

I hope my question is clear and I would be happy to clarify if necessary.

.
Please present links to the peer-reviewed studies that you reference.
.

 

[David3]

Greetings all. Let me begin by saying I am new to veganism - only been at it for about three weeks.

I am sure you are all aware that, in the short term at least, it appears that keto diets often do better in serious studies (not anecdotes) - more weight loss, better glucose control, better lipids. However, the counterargument, methinks, is that they (keto diets) are (a) damaging in the long term; (b) likely to not otherwise maintain these benefits over time.

In short, the vegan argument is WPFB is better in the long term. And this is why I am trying veganism (I appreciate the ethical stuff as well).

I am interested in more details about the science in relation to glucose control in particular (and perhaps no one here will know this stuff, but no harm in asking).

As I understand it, the proponents of WFPB argue that "cells clogged with fat" is the big problem with diabetes - that this fat prevents the "insulin key from opening the lock on the cell" to allow the sugar to get out of the blood (where it causes harm) and into the cell (where it belongs). If you get rid of the fat, you can eat plenty of healthy carbs and your glucose control will get better even though you are increasing the amount of "sugar" in your blood. The reason: the sugar can now get into the cells and out of the bloodstream.

Fine. So far so good.

My question is this: Would the WFPB expert say that the reason that the WFPB diets can do worse than the keto in the short term (say over 12 weeks) is that it takes time to clear the cells of this fat? By contrast, if you go keto, you will almost instantly drop your blood glucose for rather obvious reasons. I have watched a lot of videos from the likes of Dr. Barnard and Dr. Khambatta but they never appear to make this kind of case.

I hope my question is clear and I would be happy to clarify if necessary.

.
The American Diabetes Association recommends a diet of protein foods (plant-based or lean animal-sourced), high-fiber carbohydrate foods (whole grains, potatoes with skin), and non-starchy vegetables. It recommends water or unsweetened coffee/tea as beverages: What is the Diabetes Plate Method?

The ADA's recommended diet fully accommodates a properly-planned vegan diet. The ADA doesn't seem to recommend a ketogenic diet.
.

 

[Lou]

Good points @David3 , but I don't think its really necessary to " present links to the peer-reviewed studies that you reference."
"more weight loss, better glucose control, better lipids." are established and recognized facts now. they are not really in contention .
but... since you said "please."

This review concludes that the ketogenic diet is superior to controls in terms of glycemic control and lipid profile improvements, and the results are significant enough to recommend it as an adjunctive treatment for type two diabetes.​

Effects of the Ketogenic Diet on Glycemic Control in Diabetic Patients: Meta-Analysis of Clinical Trials - PMC

BTW, as an admitted Keto-Diet-Hater, admitting that Keto has some positive aspects hurts me. Please don't make me do that again.

 

[David3]

Good points @David3 , but I don't think its really necessary to " present links to the peer-reviewed studies that you reference."
"more weight loss, better glucose control, better lipids." are established and recognized facts now. they are not really in contention .
but... since you said "please."

This review concludes that the ketogenic diet is superior to controls in terms of glycemic control and lipid profile improvements, and the results are significant enough to recommend it as an adjunctive treatment for type two diabetes.​

Effects of the Ketogenic Diet on Glycemic Control in Diabetic Patients: Meta-Analysis of Clinical Trials - PMC

BTW, as an admitted Keto-Diet-Hater, admitting that Keto has some positive aspects hurts me. Please don't make me do that again.

.
Hi Lou,

I've read your cited meta-analysis. None of the studies in the meta-analysis compared a ketogenic diet to a whole foods plant-based diet.

One of the studies compared the results from a ketogenic diet vs. a low-fat diet.

One of the studies compared the results from a ketogenic diet vs. a low-glycemic-index diet.

Two of the studies compared the results from a ketogenic diet vs. a low-calorie diet.

One of the studies compared the results from a ketogenic diet vs. the "plate method" diet.

One of the studies measured the results from a very low-calorie ketogenic diet. No comparison diet was involved in the study.
.

 

[Lou]

.
Hi Lou,

I've read your cited meta-analysis. None of the studies in the meta-analysis compared a ketogenic diet to a whole foods plant-based diet.

Gosh darn! Bonus points!. All I read was the conclusion.

 

[Mufflon]

Full disclosure: I am anti-keto

Not because I don't believe it doesn't work, I know it does. but that it gets too much attention and there is too much misinformation.

Even the biggest proponents of keto agree it is not a long term solution. but it seems like every keto dieter I have ever met sees it as such.

You've summed it up pretty good here.

 

[Lou]

Not to beat a dead horse
But yeah, that's what I've been saying.

New Study Links Keto Diet to Severe Long-Term Health Risks

 

[Lou]

I think I have made my point, Keto is one of the stupidest diets there are (maybe only Paleo is stupider)

And here is a little backup

Keto Named the Least-Healthy Diet of the Year. How Did the Vegan Diet Rank? | VegNews

Btw, the study's issue with the Vegan Diet is that its hard to follow.

Interestingly they ranked the Ornish diet and the Nutritarain diet higher than the Vegan diet. but I thought both of those were vegan diets.

 

[silva]

I think I have made my point, Keto is one of the stupidest diets there are (maybe only Paleo is stupider)

And here is a little backup

Keto Named the Least-Healthy Diet of the Year. How Did the Vegan Diet Rank? | VegNews

Btw, the study's issue with the Vegan Diet is that its hard to follow.

Interestingly they ranked the Ornish diet and the Nutritarain diet higher than the Vegan diet. but I thought both of those were vegan diets.

the Ornish diet is all plant based, but I was surprised to find the nutritarian diet allows less then 10% of free range meat and eggs! I knew Dr Furhman suggests you should at the very least minimize animal products.
"Vegan diet" should never be a category, neither should "omnivore". Both are simply very broad categories that say nothing about what is eaten, only that omnivores can eat animals and products and vegans don't. Nothing that implies health either way. Big peeve of mine.
Another peeve is the "pegan" diet touted by Dr Mark Hyman. It's not because of the diet itself, which is simply flexitarian with a whole food slant, but the name

 

[Lou]

but I was surprised to find the nutritarian diet allows less then 10% of free range meat and eggs!

Really, that does surprise me.
Although I do have a recollection of seeing some chicken recipes in the Eat To Live Cookbook. but I could be mis-remembering.
And the Forks Over Knives diet - is that animal -free?

 

[silva]

Really, that does surprise me.
Although I do have a recollection of seeing some chicken recipes in the Eat To Live Cookbook. but I could be mis-remembering.
And the Forks Over Knives diet - is that animal -free?

FOK is all WFPB!

 

[Mufflon]

Although I do have a recollection of seeing some chicken recipes in the Eat To Live Cookbook. but I could be mis-remembering.

Yes, there are some recipes with animal foods. However, when browsing the recipes in his books and on the website the recipes containing animal foods seem to be in the 0.% range and most people following the diet seem to be vegan.

 

[Marshall102]

Does anyone know a weight loss program for vegans with enough proteins and yummy foods? Thanks in advance!

 

[David3]

Does anyone know a weight loss program for vegans with enough proteins and yummy foods? Thanks in advance!

.
Welcome Marshall. Are you addressing any specific health/medical issues?
.

 

[bEt]

Does anyone know a weight loss program for vegans with enough proteins and yummy foods? Thanks in advance!

Hi Marshall102. I'm glad to meet you!
Can I ask you what your diet is like now, and are you saying that you want to lose weight? Why?

In my experience:
The way to make any food "yummy" is to wait until you are hungry enough.

This is the trick that works for me:
1. I buy only healthy foods.
2. I prepare them ahead of time.
3. I wait until I'm hungry enough that they are delicious to me.

(Note: the reason I prepare the foods ahead is that I know from experience that when I'm hungry, I won't have the patience or willpower for the prep; I'll just want to eat!)

 

[Lou]

Does anyone know a weight loss program for vegans with enough proteins and yummy foods? Thanks in advance!

I think it might surprise you but there are a plethora of vegan weight loss books. I think the best ones are published. So you best bet may be to go to your library and just look what books are on the shelf. or you could do a catalog search and see what they have in the system. I would check out at least three and then bowse or skim them before you decide which one you like best and try it.

What works for one person or what I like may not work of be best for you, thus I recommend an initial search of some of the best ones.

However I do recommend Eat To Live by Dr. Fuhrman. Fuhrman recommends to read the whole book (or at least the first four chapters) before you start the diet. And it's more of a lifestyle change than a diet. you stay on it forever. but there is special emphasis on losing weight at first, and then it changes to more of a maintenance diet. like many of these vegan diet books, there are companion volumes, mostly cookbooks.

I think the most respected name at the Vegan Forum is Dr. Gregar. And he too has a vegan diet book with Companions books. I would put his How Not To Die on your reading list.

Also one that I have done just for fun is the 21 Day Kickstart - From PCRM and Dr. Barnard. There is a book but most people just do it online. When I did it there was a social media component. Anyone starting it on the first day of the month is encouraged to join their forum/ chat. It's very regimented which works for some people. With things to read or videos to watch or lectures to listen to each day. Plus recipes. All sent to your inbox.

 

[silva]

Does anyone know a weight loss program for vegans with enough proteins and yummy foods? Thanks in advance!

Eating whole food plant based -- as in avoiding processed foods. Plant foods that have nothing bad added, nothing good removed. No oil- fats come from whole food sources, as in nuts, seeds, avocados.... No added sugar. Weight will be naturally become where it should be,

Dr. Greger's Daily Dozen Checklist