Are measles caused by a virus?

[Nekodaiden]

(Split from Is factory farming to blame for coronavirus?)

Eating animals/their byproducts, handling dead animals produces disease. I have no issues believing this. This is consistent with history and the scientific literature. There is a consistent link between many diseases and animal consumption/handling, or the insects that are associated with these animals. Even the bubonic plague had it's origins in rats or the fleas that infested them.

However, the idea that one human being can infect another absent these factors (said infectee not having come into contact with the animal products either by touch/proximity and/or eating them or the insects that carry disease) but solely by another human who has (such as the case in what we believe are "viral" infections) is not something that is proven to me.

Take measles. All the common knowledge on this is that it is caused by a virus. Go to wikipedia and that's what it will tell you. One of the interesting ( and relatively recent) developments was that this was challenged by Stefan Lanka who set a reward to the person who could prove it was caused by a virus by the requirements he set out. He recently won the case against a claimant who took him up on his offer, and although initially ordered to pay, the case was ultimately ruled in his favor. Headlines followed that he has proven no measles virus exists. That may be misleading, because if I'm reading the story right, he won because his requirements to prove the virus existed were not met. Which leads obviously to - what were his requirements?

 

[silva]

Eating animals/their byproducts, handling dead animals produces disease. I have no issues believing this. This is consistent with history and the scientific literature. There is a consistent link between many diseases and animal consumption/handling, or the insects that are associated with these animals. Even the bubonic plague had it's origins in rats or the fleas that infested them.

However, the idea that one human being can infect another absent these factors (said infectee not having come into contact with the animal products either by touch/proximity and/or eating them or the insects that carry disease) but solely by another human who has (such as the case in what we believe are "viral" infections) is not something that is proven to me.

Take measles. All the common knowledge on this is that it is caused by a virus. Go to wikipedia and that's what it will tell you. One of the interesting ( and relatively recent) developments was that this was challenged by Stefan Lanka who set a reward to the person who could prove it was caused by a virus by the requirements he set out. He recently won the case against a claimant who took him up on his offer, and although initially ordered to pay, the case was ultimately ruled in his favor. Headlines followed that he has proven no measles virus exists. That may be misleading, because if I'm reading the story right, he won because his requirements to prove the virus existed were not met. Which leads obviously to - what were his requirements?

It was not ruled in Lanka favor, he paid out the 100,000 to the doctor who accepted the challenge- but perhaps the truth is being held back

German Biologist Who Denied Measles Exists Ordered To Pay $100,000 | TIME

It's in German--https://www.psiram.com/media/lanka-100000.pdf

 

[Nekodaiden]

It was not ruled in Lanka favor, he paid out the 100,000 to the doctor who accepted the challenge- but perhaps the truth is being held back

German Biologist Who Denied Measles Exists Ordered To Pay $100,000 | TIME

It's in German--https://www.psiram.com/media/lanka-100000.pdf

The article you quoted is old. The decision was overturned by a higher court, and was ruled in Lanka's favor.

 

[silva]

The article you quoted is old. The decision was overturned by a higher court, and was ruled in Lanka's favor.

Ok, you win, not sure what but----

David Bardens - Wikipedia

Not exactly what I call winning

 

[Mischief]

The article you quoted is old. The decision was overturned by a higher court, and was ruled in Lanka's favor.

The court's ruling was that Lanka had, in his original offer to pay the money, retained the right to solely determine what proof he would find acceptable.

IOW, the court's decision had nothing to do with whether the proof of the existence of the measles virus was sufficient, but only that Lanka had retained the right to determine whether it was sufficient.

Just like if I said, "I'll pay $100,000 to anyone who can prove to me that Neko exists. " You could show up at my front door with all your documentation in hand, and I could say, "Sorry - there's nothing here that proves to me that Neko exists." And I wouldn't have to pay out on the wager.

 

[Nekodaiden]

Ok, you win, not sure what but----

David Bardens - Wikipedia

Not exactly what I call winning

The wiki article asserts that the higher court ultimately ruled basically on a technicality, and a very weak one at that (that being, namely, that Bardens provided more than the one paper Lankins requested as proof). I find that hard to believe. From Anti-Vaxxer Biologist Stefan Lanka Bets Over $100K Measles Isn't A Virus; He Wins In German Federal Supreme Court

--

Five experts have been involved in the case and presented the results of scientific studies. All five experts, including Prof. Dr. Dr. Andreas Podbielski who had been appointed by the OLG Stuttgart as the preceding court, have consistently found that none of the six publications* which have been introduced to the trial, contains scientific proof of the existence of the alleged measles virus.

In the trial, the results of research into so-called genetic fingerprints of alleged measles virus have been introduced. Two recognised laboratories, including the world’s largest and leading genetic Institute, arrived at exactly the same results independently.The results prove that the authors of the six publications in the measles virus case were wrong, and as a direct result all measles virologists are still wrong today: They have misinterpreted ordinary constituents of cells as part of the suspected measles virus.

Because of this error, during decades of consensus building process, normal cell constituents were mentally assembled into a model of a measles virus. To this day, an actual structure that corresponds to this model has been found neither in a human, nor in an animal. With the results of the genetic tests, all thesis of existence of measles virus has been scientifically disproved.

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*my underline

Of course, without seeing the actual debates in the trial or the original challenge (which is probably out there somewhere in English, all I could find was a German copy on an archive), it's hard to make a determination that isn't already coming from one's own bias. That goes for the wikipedia article cited which obviously implies he basically won on a technicality.

 

[Nekodaiden]

The court's ruling was that Lanka had, in his original offer to pay the money, retained the right to solely determine what proof he would find acceptable.

IOW, the court's decision had nothing to do with whether the proof of the existence of the measles virus was sufficient, but only that Lanka had retained the right to determine whether it was sufficient.

Just like if I said, "I'll pay $100,000 to anyone who can prove to me that Neko exists. " You could show up at my front door with all your documentation in hand, and I could say, "Sorry - there's nothing here that proves to me that Neko exists." And I wouldn't have to pay out on the wager.

This case was covered in high profile publications, especially when originally Lanka was originally ordered to pay. The idea you're forwarding is similar to Silva's wikipedia article, which basically makes it look like all the high court judges had to dismiss evidence in favor of one man's whim not to accept it. If I were a high court judge making such a determination on such an important matter I'd also be aware that such a decision could effect my credibility as a high court judge.

Your comparison to me showing up to your doorstep is not comparable. A court judge could not dismiss legal documents proving my identity on your whim not to accept the documents. If they were bona-fide and could be verified, he would have to accept them.

In the Lanka case, the evidence itself of a measles virus was put to the test and it was found to be lacking, not only winning the case for Lanke, but showing that all 6 of the documents used to make the case for the measles virus failed upon independent, professional analysis.

 

[silva]

This case was covered in high profile publications, especially when originally Lanka was originally ordered to pay. The idea you're forwarding is similar to Silva's wikipedia article, which basically makes it look like all the high court judges had to dismiss evidence in favor of one man's whim not to accept it. If I were a high court judge making such a determination on such an important matter I'd also be aware that such a decision could effect my credibility as a high court judge.

Your comparison to me showing up to your doorstep is not comparable. A court judge could not dismiss legal documents proving my identity on your whim not to accept the documents. If they were bona-fide and could be verified, he would have to accept them.

In the Lanka case, the evidence itself of a measles virus was put to the test and it was found to be lacking, not only winning the case for Lanke, but showing that all 6 of the documents used to make the case for the measles virus failed upon independent, professional analysis.

...and then all the evidence mysteriously disappeared and people had to dig deep, and look for clues, in order to spread the word of how the government is controlling us with the fake measles...

 

[Nekodaiden]

...and then all the evidence mysteriously disappeared and people had to dig deep, and look for clues, in order to spread the word of how the government is controlling us with the fake measles...

Eh, no. The evidence is there, but unlike the original court ruling where Lanke was ordered to pay, the higher court ruling got little press. To date, I couldn't even find an English version of a wikipedia article on Lanke, there's one in German and it can be obtained through Google Translate, but not one in English that I could find.

Lanke has a molecular biology degree and has studied viruses. Taking the position he did on the measles virus not only threatens his credibility but also his ability to get work in his chosen field. That isn't something someone does lightly, unless they are convinced in their positions enough to take the risk. If I get the gist of his position, it's not that they don't exist, but that they don't exist in the way we are commonly taught to think of them - ie: as disease causing agents.

He also has made no statement that measles itself is fake, that's your addition.

 

[Nekodaiden]

For anyone interested in the Lanke/measles part of this thread, the courts' reasons in the case can be found here: HighCourtRulingLanke

Although it isn't in English so you will have to use a translator for that language.

I see from reading the 20th reason that the "single publication" reason for dismissal of the claim (against Lanke) alluded to in various links is a half truth. None of the publications submitted fit the requirements he set forth:

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A single publication was also required, in which both the proof of the existence of the measles virus and its diameter were determined, so that it would not be sufficient if - as represented by the expert - only the combination of the scientific statements in the six presented Professional articles prove the existence of the measles virus and at least two of these articles contained sufficient information on the diameter of the measles virus. Furthermore, the content of the publications submitted did not meet the requirements for evidence. The phenomena described as measles viruses are actually transport vesicles (vesicles) in the cell. None of the documentation presented is based on tests in which the pathogen - as required - was previously isolated and biochemically characterized or even such isolation was scientifically documented. The type of evidence used in the tests to which the plaintiff relies does not correspond to the state of the art in science and technology and does not correspond to the requirements for evidence taking into account K's postulates. In addition, the submitted work is already unsuitable because, without exception, it originates from the time before the IfSG came into force on January 1, 2001 and does not constitute a publication by the RKI. The determination of the diameter was also not well-founded. The size range of 300 to 1000 nm specified in one of the publications presented already contradicts the thesis of the virus, since viruses were characterized by a slight variation in their diameter between 15 and a maximum of 400 nm. Incidentally, information from the RKI dated January 24, 2012 shows that the diameter of measles viruses should be 120 - 400 nm and that they often contain ribosomes, although the latter would prevent the existence of a measles virus.

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