80/10/10

Tyll

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Hello everyone,

unfortunately I am not as regularly active in the forum as I would like to be, but I seem to remember a case where a fruit based diet was quickly fobbed off. It is not difficult for me to eat a vegan diet, but the hoped-for positive physical aspect has so far failed to materialize. Looking for the right (of course vegan) diet for me, I came across the book "The 80/10/10 Diet" and I must say that some statements in it have surprised me very much.

Is there perhaps someone here who has already had contact with this diet? The basic idea is to reduce the amount of calories supplied by fats and proteins to 10% each (moreover, there is a kind of hierarchy, where cooked food is the worst implementation of the concept, which can be increased accordingly by a raw diet and further by a fruit diet).

I assume that most here can grasp, at least in theory, the benefits of the raw diet (especially because there is also a book by the renowned authors of "Becoming Vegan"). Otherwise, I would be very interested in the counter-arguments.

I have unfortunately not yet read the book in its entirety, but because one statement concerns me so much, I would like to get your opinion on it. This statement is that the complex carbohydrates in grains and legumes (apart from the claim that the protein content in them is also too high) are responsible for a whole range of diseases, including cancer. It reads: "We do not have the digestive enzymes to break down the oligosaccharides in beans, nor the polysaccharides (cellulose and other fibers) in grains and starchy vegetables, a sure sign that they are not designed for human consumption." Since it clearly goes against the recommended daily dozen, I would appreciate feedback on this!

I should perhaps have written this right at the beginning: I am in no way interested in starting a fight, but I am very concerned about this topic and I hope for objective contributions.

Thank you very much in advance!
 

Brian W

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I don't personally know, but I have heard that many vegans who have tried this have ended up giving it up in favour of a more normal vegan diet. Like a lot of things, it appears to make sense on the surface until you start looking at the real evidence. As far as raw is concerned, I think the main objections are first that it is unsustainable for most people, because it is extremely restrictive and secondly that many nutrients a vegan needs are made more bio-available by cooking. I am aware that animals don't cook and they survive, but much water has passed under the bridge since we lived in the trees and our bodies have adapted. Ultimately, it's for you to choose, but be careful and be open minded to changing back if it's not for you.
 
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Tyll

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Thank you for your reply! I will try to use arguments mentioned in the book in the following, in order to get a more in-depth discussion.

many nutrients a vegan needs are made more bio-available by cooking.
That is directly opposed to the claim in the book, where denaturation of enzymes and other important components are described. Do you have examples and scientific sources for the increased bio-availability. (In the book tomatoes are mentioned - but this advantage is accompanied by a disadvantage there as well.. I can not find the passage right now).

I am aware that animals don't cook and they survive, but much water has passed under the bridge since we lived in the trees and our bodies have adapted.
The book states the advent of grain agriculture was 10.000 years ago and that "Physiologists suggests that it generally takes 50.000 to 500.000 years or longer for evolutionary Changs to occur." (I don't know, whether this is true or not).

Ultimately, it's for you to choose, but be careful and be open minded to changing back if it's not for you.
Yes, that's indeed important to me, but thanks for the advise! :)
 
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Brian W

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Thank you for your reply! I will try to use arguments mentioned in the book in the following, in order to get a more in-depth discussion.


That is directly opposed to the claim in the book, where denaturation of enzymes and other important components are described. Do you have examples and scientific sources for the increased bio-availability. (In the book tomatoes are mentioned - but this advantage is accompanied by a disadvantage there as well.. I can not find the passage right now).


The book states the advent of grain agriculture was 10.000 years ago and that "Physiologists suggests that it generally takes 50.000 to 500.000 years or longer for evolutionary Changs to occur." (I don't know, whether this is true or not).


Yes, that's indeed important to me, but thanks for the advise! :)
I admittedly am having trouble finding direct scientific sources and will continue to look, but I won't trust a single book without at least first looking at books that show evidence to the contrary. I used to when I was a curious teen and later discovered how sneaky authors can be in presenting information in order to sell their ideas. I also should be more careful than I am in examining internet content, no matter how genuine the sources seem to be.

This is what Vegan Bowls says on cooking v. raw (and I understand I don't know where the info comes from)

How-to Increase the Bioavailability of Nutrients on a Plant-Based Diet

Raw foods are often declared as healthier, since many nutrients, like Vitamin C, can get lost by cooking. That is true – but for certain foods it’s even more beneficial to cook them. From a holistic point of view, this process eases intestinal work and therefore improves the nutrient absorption.

Cooked carrots, sweet potato, zucchini, spinach, mushrooms, asparagus, many cruciferous vegetables, also supply more antioxidants, such as carotenoids and ferulic acid, to the body than they do when raw. In addition, cooking these vegetables breaks down harmful anti-nutrients nutrients like oxalic acid.

Of course we should always go for a gentle cooking, or better yet, steaming, and choose a good balance of raw, watery foods that are easy to digest and cooked high-fiber foods for a wholesome meal – just make sure to enjoy the best out of both worlds!
 
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David3

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Hello everyone,

unfortunately I am not as regularly active in the forum as I would like to be, but I seem to remember a case where a fruit based diet was quickly fobbed off. It is not difficult for me to eat a vegan diet, but the hoped-for positive physical aspect has so far failed to materialize. Looking for the right (of course vegan) diet for me, I came across the book "The 80/10/10 Diet" and I must say that some statements in it have surprised me very much.

Is there perhaps someone here who has already had contact with this diet? The basic idea is to reduce the amount of calories supplied by fats and proteins to 10% each (moreover, there is a kind of hierarchy, where cooked food is the worst implementation of the concept, which can be increased accordingly by a raw diet and further by a fruit diet).

I assume that most here can grasp, at least in theory, the benefits of the raw diet (especially because there is also a book by the renowned authors of "Becoming Vegan"). Otherwise, I would be very interested in the counter-arguments.

I have unfortunately not yet read the book in its entirety, but because one statement concerns me so much, I would like to get your opinion on it. This statement is that the complex carbohydrates in grains and legumes (apart from the claim that the protein content in them is also too high) are responsible for a whole range of diseases, including cancer. It reads: "We do not have the digestive enzymes to break down the oligosaccharides in beans, nor the polysaccharides (cellulose and other fibers) in grains and starchy vegetables, a sure sign that they are not designed for human consumption." Since it clearly goes against the recommended daily dozen, I would appreciate feedback on this!

I should perhaps have written this right at the beginning: I am in no way interested in starting a fight, but I am very concerned about this topic and I hope for objective contributions.

Thank you very much in advance!
.
There's quite a difference between Douglas Graham's "The 80/10/10 Diet" versus the book "Becoming Raw", written by Registered Dietitians Vesanto Melina and Brenda Davis. Melina and Davis' raw vegan book encourages people to include a certain amount of cooked food (especially legumes) into their primarily raw diets. Also, Melina and Davis' raw vegan book includes full citations of hundreds of peer-reviewed studies.
 
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I have unfortunately not yet read the book in its entirety, but because one statement concerns me so much, I would like to get your opinion on it. This statement is that the complex carbohydrates in grains and legumes (apart from the claim that the protein content in them is also too high) are responsible for a whole range of diseases, including cancer. It reads: "We do not have the digestive enzymes to break down the oligosaccharides in beans, nor the polysaccharides (cellulose and other fibers) in grains and starchy vegetables, a sure sign that they are not designed for human consumption."
.
I read the peer-reviewed studies in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, and others. I have never found a study which showed that beans and lentils are bad for you.

Peer-reviewed studies aside, it's my opinion that Doug Graham is a dangerous quack.
.
 
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Lou

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Hello everyone,

hello and welcome to the forum.
Is there perhaps someone here who has already had contact with this diet?

years ago I became very interested in this diet too. I even tried it for a while. However I found it too difficult and gave it up. Now just because I found it too difficult doesn't make it a bad diet. After all many people follow it successfully. But I'm under the impression that most people who try it give it up for one reason or another.
I don't think anyone on the this forum eats a primarily raw diet. And that in itself is sort of telling

This statement is that the complex carbohydrates in grains and legumes (apart from the claim that the protein content in them is also too high) are responsible for a whole range of diseases, including cancer. It reads: "We do not have the digestive enzymes to break down the oligosaccharides in beans, nor the polysaccharides (cellulose and other fibers) in grains and starchy vegetables, a sure sign that they are not designed for human consumption." Since it clearly goes against the recommended daily dozen, I would appreciate feedback on this!

That is a bag of snakes. I'm not sure how deep I want to wade into that. Besides you have google. you can do some of that research yourself.

I think that there were some studies done a long time ago that my have hinted at complex carbs causing disease. but almost all research since has shown that complex carbs are really really good for you. in fact if anything they reduce the risk of cancer.

It could be that someone along the line has confused complex carbs with simple carbs. And yes, simple carbs have been linked to "a whole range of diseases, including cancer."

Yes its true that humans can not digest most oligosaccharides. These complex carbs travel to colon where our gut bacteria digests them. Some of the end products and the bacteria themselves are then absorbed. but mostly the fiber has so many other benefits.

There are several kinds of polysaccharides. Most of them are digestible. In fact they provide with most of the energy we use every day. The ones that are not digestible are dealt with just like the oligosaccharides, and digested by our gut bacteria.

I hope that helps. Below is some things I google just to make sure I got everything right.

 
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Lou

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I read the peer-reviewed studies in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, and others. I have never found a study which showed that beans and lentils are bad for you.

Peer-reviewed studies aside, it's my opinion that Doug Graham is a dangerous quack.
.

Well Dr. Grundy says lectins are bad for you. But Dr. Gregar rips him apart.
 
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Tyll

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Okay, thank you very much, that reassures me!

What do you think about the 80/10/10 quota? Low-fat is probably okay, right? If I remember correctly, "How not to Diet" also talks about lipotoxicity... so rather little fat and if then the good one found in nuts and the algae supplements, is this correct?
 

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Well Dr. Grundy says lectins are bad for you. But Dr. Gregar rips him apart.
.
Dr. Grundy's popular book claims that legume lectins are bad for you. He hasn't published any peer-reviewed studies showing this to be true.
.
 
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Tyll

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Thank you very much Lou! I replied to David3 and missed two posts in this time..

So I can stick to my cereals and nuts :)

Is it save to eat lots of fruits all day long? I would eat the nuts in the evening, to not disturb the carb intake.
 

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That is directly opposed to the claim in the book, where denaturation of enzymes and other important components are described.

I used to know all about this but its been a while. but without looking it up - how about this.

Enzymes are proteins. Proteins are broken down (denatured) during the process of digestion. cooking food just makes this step faster.
Do you have examples and scientific sources for the increased bio-availability. (In the book tomatoes are mentioned - but this advantage is accompanied by a disadvantage there as well.. I can not find the passage right now).

Although cooking does destroy some nutrients. some nutrients DO become more bio-available. This is why many of our favorite vegan diet doctors recommend eating both raw and cooked food.

The book states the advent of grain agriculture was 10.000 years ago and that "Physiologists suggests that it generally takes 50.000 to 500.000 years or longer for evolutionary Changs to occur." (I don't know, whether this is true or not).

That does sound about right. but I don't think you can use the advent of agriculture for this argument. Hominids have been cooking food for 2 million years.

However, our diets did change A LOT after the invention of agriculture. Grains AND Animal husbandry changed everything. and not always for the better.

One of the things that my favorite vegan doctors all agree on is that Americans eat Way too much meat and dairy. They also agree that we eat too many simple carbohydrates. And some agree that we eat too many grains. Dr. Fuhrman and Dr. Gregar both advise limiting your daily servings of grains. And of course just whole grains not highly refined flour. Two or three servings seems to be the consensus. Some Americans have 5 or 6 servings a day.
 
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Lou

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Okay, thank you very much, that reassures me!

What do you think about the 80/10/10 quota? Low-fat is probably okay, right? If I remember correctly, "How not to Diet" also talks about lipotoxicity... so rather little fat and if then the good one found in nuts and the algae supplements, is this correct?

For me, I don't think 80/10/10 is actually doable. I've tried.
My current goal is a 60/20/20. But its a goal. in reality I frequent go under 20% protein and over 20% fat.
But 60/20/20 is my goal.
 
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Lou

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Okay, thank you very much, that reassures me!

What do you think about the 80/10/10 quota? Low-fat is probably okay, right? If I remember correctly, "How not to Diet" also talks about lipotoxicity... so rather little fat and if then the good one found in nuts and the algae supplements, is this correct?
I don't know much about lipotoxicity. but I believe its a rare abnormal condition

And.... as far as low fat goes. You don't want to go too low. Although there isn't a large amount of evidence its pretty much understood that there is some minimum for the intake of fat. The omega 3s which you get from fats seem to be needed too.
 
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Lou

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Thank you very much Lou! I replied to David3 and missed two posts in this time..

So I can stick to my cereals and nuts :)

Is it save to eat lots of fruits all day long? I would eat the nuts in the evening, to not disturb the carb intake.
I am pretty sure there you should not eat too many nuts. They just have a lot of fat.
The rule of thumb I've seen in various sources is about a handful (1 - 2 tbsp) a day.

I don't think eating a huge amount of fruit is necessarily a good idea. For most of us - it would just make us fat.
Remember that the Raw Diet Gurus like Raw Kristina and Freelee were/are fitness instructors. they commonly burned 3 thousand calories a day.

Cereals are grains. and again the rule of thumb is that you should limit your number of servings of whole grains. Although there is some debate on what that number is the condense is between one and four. two to three seems to be that sweet spot.

You admitted to be familiar with Gregar's Daily Dozen. that is a pretty good basic guide to good vegan nutrition .
 
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Is there perhaps someone here who has already had contact with this diet? The basic idea is to reduce the amount of calories supplied by fats and proteins to 10% each (moreover, there is a kind of hierarchy, where cooked food is the worst implementation of the concept, which can be increased accordingly by a raw diet and further by a fruit diet).
I was eating a roughly 80/10/10 high-carb vegan diet about seven years ago, but it was mostly cooked: uncooked oat bran for breakfast, brown rice and veggies for lunch, roasted potatoes for dinner. I was losing weight, like I wanted to, but I'd recently started exercising, and as soon as I started lifting serious weight, I experienced crushing, unremitting hunger from the lack of protein. No matter how much carbs I ate, the hunger pangs wouldn't go away. So I had to increase the protein.
 

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I was eating a roughly 80/10/10 high-carb vegan diet about seven years ago, but it was mostly cooked: uncooked oat bran for breakfast, brown rice and veggies for lunch, roasted potatoes for dinner. I was losing weight, like I wanted to, but I'd recently started exercising, and as soon as I started lifting serious weight, I experienced crushing, unremitting hunger from the lack of protein. No matter how much carbs I ate, the hunger pangs wouldn't go away. So I had to increase the protein.
I don't think it works that way. We don't have that kind of fine tuning in our bellies or blood stream. We do have low sugar warnings - but there aren't any low protein warnings.

Sometimes you have eaten a lot and you still feel hungry. That might be because of low sugar levels. it takes a while for the sugar levels in our bloodstream to catch up. This is especially true when eating complex carbs which digest slower.

The number one cause for hunger among vegans is too few calories. new vegans are constantly being surprised by how bulky vegan food is. All the food you mentioned do not have a lot of calories - you have to eat very large portions to get enough calories.
They also don't have a lot of fat and fat - being slow to digest does give a person "satiety ".

Most cravings are just psychological. Even the feeling of being hungry isn't particauraly trustworthy. People think they are hungry and they are just thirsty. In fact, thirst is about the only thing you can really trust.

in fact, the 80/10/10 diet is well suited for athletes. its easier to get the necessary protein when you are consuming a lot of calories.

That being said I think we are all better off eating a more varied diet.
 

permabulk

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I don't think it works that way. We don't have that kind of fine tuning in our bellies or blood stream. We do have low sugar warnings - but there aren't any low protein warnings.
You don't know what you are talking about. Nothing but protein got rid of that hunger (and it did so almost immediately), the diet was low in protein, I was eating literally the same amounts of the exact same foods everyday, so there were few variables in the diet: low protein was obviously the problem. I've had the experience more than once. I see no value in your speculation about what sorts of macro signaling mechanisms humans do or don't have. Experience trumps speculation.
 

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You don't know what you are talking about. Nothing but protein got rid of that hunger (and it did so almost immediately),

Actually that proves my point. Its just psychological. It takes hours for protein to be digested enough to enter the blood stream and then your cells.

But don't feel bad. most people surrender to their cravings.

I will go so far to admit that there have been reported incidences where a person craving for a food was connected to a deficiency. But they are very rare.

But don't take my word for it- look it up. or just read this

Experience trumps speculation.
So your personal experience is more important than fact based/science based research and studies. Research institutes have been wasting their money.

Btw, I have surrendered to cravings. In my experience the craving will go away anyway.
 
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Hello everyone,

unfortunately I am not as regularly active in the forum as I would like to be, but I seem to remember a case where a fruit based diet was quickly fobbed off. It is not difficult for me to eat a vegan diet, but the hoped-for positive physical aspect has so far failed to materialize. Looking for the right (of course vegan) diet for me, I came across the book "The 80/10/10 Diet" and I must say that some statements in it have surprised me very much.

Is there perhaps someone here who has already had contact with this diet? The basic idea is to reduce the amount of calories supplied by fats and proteins to 10% each (moreover, there is a kind of hierarchy, where cooked food is the worst implementation of the concept, which can be increased accordingly by a raw diet and further by a fruit diet).

I assume that most here can grasp, at least in theory, the benefits of the raw diet (especially because there is also a book by the renowned authors of "Becoming Vegan"). Otherwise, I would be very interested in the counter-arguments.

I have unfortunately not yet read the book in its entirety, but because one statement concerns me so much, I would like to get your opinion on it. This statement is that the complex carbohydrates in grains and legumes (apart from the claim that the protein content in them is also too high) are responsible for a whole range of diseases, including cancer. It reads: "We do not have the digestive enzymes to break down the oligosaccharides in beans, nor the polysaccharides (cellulose and other fibers) in grains and starchy vegetables, a sure sign that they are not designed for human consumption." Since it clearly goes against the recommended daily dozen, I would appreciate feedback on this!

I should perhaps have written this right at the beginning: I am in no way interested in starting a fight, but I am very concerned about this topic and I hope for objective contributions.

Thank you very much in advance!
I have tried it, but what works or does not for me is not the same for someone else. Some vegans like consuming low fat, some
eat a keto high fat regimen. Try it for 2 weeks and see how you feel.